Will the next booming profession be copy editor?

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by SlowRain

I think we overestimate the quality of what people will read and enjoy. Not only that, but people don't really know anymore which grammar and punctuation are correct (and I say that as someone whose grammar and punctuation are not great). Both issues are products of the times we live in.

Which is exactly why copyeditors are needed.

Originally Posted by SlowRain

I think, initially, we'll see poor English in self-published e-books. However, as the authors establish themselves a bit, they'll put a few bucks toward copy-editing, whether that be by hiring someone or else educating themselves. It would also help greatly if copy-editing fees would come down.

I don't know if it'll become a hot career (I certainly hope it doesn't), but it may be a good way for people to earn a few extra bucks at home.

Obviously you haven't the slightest respect for copyeditors!

Copyediting isn't some casual little hobby--it's a real job, it has real value, and the pay is barely adequate now.

[SlowRain]

Don't misunderstand me. I would like to see better copyediting out there, and I do respect the process. I just don't want to see ridiculous fees. We already have enough things in this world ridiculously priced. I envison it being a great opportunity for retired high school English teachers. I just don't want an industry that's based out of high-priced Manhattan offices, with plush office furniture etc. If the author isn't living in that situation, the copyeditor shouldn't either. If the author is an average person writing out of a simple home, I don't see why the copyeditor should be above that. The job each does involves a similar process with similar equipment. Adequate remuneration for both is fine.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by SlowRain

Don't misunderstand me. I would like to see better copyediting out there, and I do respect the process. I just don't want to see ridiculous fees. We already have enough things in this world ridiculously priced. I envison it being a great opportunity for retired high school English teachers. I just don't want an industry that's based out of high-priced Manhattan offices, with plush office furniture etc. If the author isn't living in that situation, the copyeditor shouldn't either. If the author is an average person writing out of a simple home, I don't see why the copyeditor should be above that. The job each does involves a similar process with similar equipment. Adequate remuneration for both is fine.

I guess it depends what your idea of a "ridiculous fee" is. Personally I don't consider, say, $50/hr to be an unreasonable fee for a skilled task such as proofreading. If it takes 10h to proof-read an average novel, $500 doesn't seem a great deal of money to spend if you're serious about writing as a career. There are very few careers in which you don't have to invest money in training yourself.

[SlowRain]

I would say $50 an hour for someone working out of their home would be excessive in this situation, especially considering there's no capital outlay involved (I don't mind paying people a fair wage to earn a living, but I don't agree with paying ridiculous amounts simply because they and their industry think they're worth it). However, I'd also assume it would take longer than 10 hours, but I guess that depends on the length of the book and how much correcting has to be done. If it's a particularly messy manuscript (about 400-500 pages MMPB), then $500 would certainly not be unreasonable. I'd expect a lower bill if it was a shorter book or if it wasn't too messy.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

No, because people aren't willing to pay for it.

The dominant feeling I see on MR these days is that people expect to get their ebooks cheap. Developmental editing, which just about everyone needs, costs. Copy editing costs. Proofreading costs. These are skilled trades occupied by people who are professionally trained, and expect professional rates for doing it.

It is increasingly not being done, even by major trade houses, in attempts to cut costs and save money.

Precisely what ebookers expect and publishers are doing.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by SlowRain

I don't know if it'll become a hot career (I certainly hope it doesn't), but it may be a good way for people to earn a few extra bucks at home.

This is precisely what is wrong with the state of editing today -- the mistaken belief by authors and publishers that anyone can do it and that it is just a sideline job.

Properly done, editorial services are highly skilled crafts. For many of us in the profession, this is a full-time job, not a way to earn enough extra to take a vacation or buy a TV.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by SlowRain

I would say $50 an hour for someone working out of their home would be excessive in this situation, especially considering there's no capital outlay involved (I don't mind paying people a fair wage to earn a living, but I don't agree with paying ridiculous amounts simply because they and their industry think they're worth it). However, I'd also assume it would take longer than 10 hours, but I guess that depends on the length of the book and how much correcting has to be done. If it's a particularly messy manuscript (about 400-500 pages MMPB), then $500 would certainly not be unreasonable. I'd expect a lower bill if it was a shorter book or if it wasn't too messy.

So what would you consider a fair hourly rate for a copyeditor? I don't like per-book rates because they really don't reflect the amount of work involved. Hourly's the way to go, that way those who produce better manuscripts get the benefits, and the editor doesn't have to worry about explaining variable rates to clients.

Also, what about developmental editing?

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by SlowRain

...I just don't want to see ridiculous fees. We already have enough things in this world ridiculously priced. I envison it being a great opportunity for retired high school English teachers. I just don't want an industry that's based out of high-priced Manhattan offices, with plush office furniture etc. If the author isn't living in that situation, the copyeditor shouldn't either. If the author is an average person writing out of a simple home, I don't see why the copyeditor should be above that. The job each does involves a similar process with similar equipment. Adequate remuneration for both is fine.

1. I edit a lot of education material written by teachers -- active and retired -- for teachers, not for the consumer, and it is the rare teacher who has adequate skills to be a competent editor. Most have very rudimentary grammar and spelling skills today, and their prose reflects the Twitter effect, not the skills of a grammarian.

2. Most professional editors do not work in plush Manhattan offices; I haven't for 26 years. Most do work out of their homes in dedicated office spaces. Editorial services are professional services and cost money. It is no different than going to a doctor who has his/her office in his/her home rather than in the medical high-rise down the street. You pay for the doctor's expertise, skill, and knowledge, not for the location of the office. Similarly, a writer pays for editorial services, not for the location of the office.

3. I assume then that you think the editors who work on James Patterson's books should be paid millions of dollars for their services because Patterson earns millions of dollars as an author. Somehow I don't think Patterson -- or any other author -- would agree, believing that their success is largely a result of their creativity.

I wonder if you tell your auto mechanic that you refuse to pay his/her hourly rate because it is higher than yours?

[SlowRain]

If I implied that just anyone can do it, then I should correct that. However, there are any number of people who have studied English in university who are not currently employed in that field. Even if they are, and so long as it doesn't conflict with their day jobs, why shouldn't they give it a try? What disqualifies a high school English teacher--or university professor, for that matter--from doing it? It'd be a good job for a qualified person who wants to stay at home with their children.

It's a similar situation to bookkeeping services. One of the worst things anyone can do is take their monthly accounting to one of the Big 4. Take it to someone qualified and who has a good reputation who just happens to work out of their home. Or, better yet, learn to do it yourself. (I say that as a former accountant who used to work for one of the Big 4 and who has never done accounting at home.)

[HarryT]

Slowrain - you say that you feel that $50/hr is too high. What do you think would be a reasonable rate for copy editing?

[SlowRain]

Originally Posted by rhadin

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I wonder if you tell your auto mechanic that you refuse to pay his/her hourly rate because it is higher than yours?

I don't think we're as far from disagreeing with each other as you think.

1. Then let that rare teacher be a copyeditor. They'll build up good reputation for themselves. The others won't.

2. I see nothing that we disagree about here.

3. You assume incorrectly. I don't even know where you got this idea from.

Most mechanics who work out of their home garages usually charge reasonable rates. I have no problems with them. (Maybe I should add that I also worked as an accountant for a heavy-equipment dealership, and my father does mechanic work out of his own garage.)

[SlowRain]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Slowrain - you say that you feel that $50/hr is too high. What do you think would be a reasonable rate for copy editing?

It'll differ by location. A qualified person living in New York will have to charge more than an equally qualified person living in a small town. Assuming they worked full time, it would have to be something that would allow the person to pay the mortgage on a modest house, pay for a vehicle, food, utilities, clothing, etc. I suppose it would be an average wage. I don't see why it should be any more or less. What does the average person in the US make? I doubt it's $50/hr.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by SlowRain

It'll differ by location. A qualified person living in New York will have to charge more than an equally qualified person living in a small town. Assuming they worked full time, it would have to be something that would allow the person to pay the mortgage on a modest house, pay for a vehicle, food, utilities, clothing, etc. I suppose it would be an average wage. I don't see why it should be any more or less. What does the average person in the US make? I doubt it's $50/hr.

You're right, the average person in the US doesn't make $50 an hour. Lots of people work in food services and retail, and many of them make less than $10 an hour. I'd expect the average wage to be probably in the $15-20 range at most.

Unfortunately, that's irrelevant. We're talking about a freelance professional rather than an employee, and their hourly billing rates are always going to be higher than the average hourly wage for their area.

[SlowRain]

I understand and agree. It's hard to pay all the bills I listed working retail, so we're probably closer to agreeing than to disagreeing.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by SlowRain

I understand and agree. It's hard to pay all the bills I listed working retail, so we're probably closer to agreeing than to disagreeing.

I hope so; though I think our degree of disagreement can be quantified by the amount less than $50 an hour you think copyediting is worth. The closer you are to accepting that figure, the closer we are to agreement.