How can we convince Amazon to sell ePub format?

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by K-Thom

Let's see ... there are supposed to be 2-3 million Kindle devices out there, about 5 million iPads, a gazillion of iPhones, iPods Touch and Blackberrys. All those are capable of reading Kindle eBooks.

With a dedicated "Kindle" app, yes. All those devices are capable of reading epubs, too. Only the hardware Kindle is not (intentionally, of course.)

[DMB]

My first e-reader is the Kindle 3, and therefore I am pretty inexperienced. I have bought my dead-tree books from Amazon for ages and find them a convenient source. I have found, however, that some books I would like to read are not available in mobi format but can be had in epub from sources other than Amazon.

I have limited time to spend on setting things up and am not very technically minded. What would people advise for me? Should I go the route: buy in epub, strip DRM, convert to mobi format; or should I simply buy a second e-reader to read epub?

[KenJackson]

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

The short answer is, you'll never be able to do it. Amazon fully understands the principles of vendor locking, and just like Microsoft, it'll be a cold day in hell before they ever let go of their forced monopoly. They know that if they do, people will flock away from them to other readers and/or other services. Maybe not now, but it will happen in time. And if that happens, their goal of being the end all, be all of the publishing world will never happen.

I don't like this answer at all, but I fear you may be correct.

Originally Posted by Steven Lake

The market hates monopolies, and right now Amazon is perceived as exactly that, which means they will get supplanted sooner than later.

The market hates monopolies in non-technical things, but seems to love Microsoft's near monopoly in Windows.

I talk up Linux a lot, but many people use logic like this: computers are difficult and I want the simplest thing and since the people that use Linux are smart, it must be difficult so I don't want it.

I don't know if Amazon will be able to create an appropriate myth surrounding Kindle to garner a monopoly, though that does seem to be their goal.

Originally Posted by daffy4u

This is something I've never understood. What monopoly?

The monopoly they are desperately trying to create.

[fjtorres]

The issue is not the book format.
The issue is DRM.
Amazon is *not* going to adopt ADEPT. Not going to happen. Forget about it.

ePub they can support at the drop of a hat but they are not going to surrender control of their customer relations and have all transactions have to pass through somebody else's servers.
They are not going to increase their operational and support costs by supporting two book repositories.
They are *not* going to give up Whispernet. And Whispernet is incompatible with ADEPT, in case you hadn't given it much thought.
They are not going to keep two sets of customer support personnel or dilute their existing staff to support somebody else's software and/or hardware.
Not going to happen.

Amazon customers are satisfied with their devices, their bookstore, their *network*, their customer service, their prices.
Amazon is satisfied with the size of their customer base and revenue streams.
Neither has any valid reason to change.
Nobody puts a gun to anybody's head to make them buy a book reader or an ebook.
"You pays your money and takes your chances."

Amazon started selling Kindle before there was an ePub. So its not like they rejected an existing standard. What they did was go outt and buy the best *existing* format.
They built their entire business, as it exists, on the back of their walled-garden Whispernet approach and it works for them and their customers. It offers things the oh-so miraculous ePub "standard" (which as pointed out is a non-standard standard) doesn't. Others are free to try other approaches and they are. So far, Amazon's approach is working better which is why they are the target of so many's fury; their success gives the lie to their cherished beliefs.

Sony had the exact same business model as Amazon until they got ePub religion; what it got them is that they went from industry leader to one of the pack in a generic hardware business, trying to justify premium pricing for a commodity product.

Amazon is not about to sacrifice their healthy bottom-line at the altar of annointed standards just to please pundits and hobbyists, not when the mainstream customers are daily voting with their wallets for *their* approach. They'd be stupid to do so. It's not as if there is any natural law that says they *have* to cater to every single person's needs or prejudices. Just as there is no law saying anybody *has* to buy Kindle.

Say what you will about Kindle and Amazon, they are successful. And the reason they are successful is because their *customers* like it. And they are Legion.
When the day arrives that ePub makes *economic* and *business* sense to support (if ever) Amazon will (probably) think about it. But until then they are *not* going to do their enemies any favors.

More importantly, if Amazon ever sees the need to "support ePub" they are *not* going to pull a Sony and roll over and play dead for Adobe; they'll do what B&N and Apple did; use their own DRM on *their* ebookstore. And do it on a separate product, most likely. No Kindle royalties to Adobe, ever. And, they'll probably charge more for the ePub reader and ePub books to pay for the required Adobe Tax.

Bottom line: ePub on a Kindle? Not any time soon.
Need ePub? Buy one of the many decent readers supporting it and stop trying to tell Amazon how to manage their business.
They have good reason (a healthy bottom line) to do what they do and as one of only two players that are anything approaching global in scale (Kudos to Kobo for knowing exactly where the industry is going) they have no need to change.

Money talks and Kindle sales talk louder than pundits.
Next!

[K-Thom]

But then, we're better off without amazon. One thing I'm happy about the e-book market in France, it's all ePub, with adept drm (or no drm).

How very unpatriotic of you. Mobipocket is still a French company, eve if it belongs to Amazon by now. Without Mobipocket the Kindle infrastructure of today wouldn't exist.

So shouldn't you rather stay true to the French origin of the Kindle success instead of succumbing to the cultural ePub-invasion imposed upon your country by the US-dominated consortium?

People have been gouillotined for less, y'know ...

[EowynCarter]

How very unpatriotic of you. Mobipocket is still a French company, eve if it belongs to Amazon by now. Without Mobipocket the Kindle infrastructure of today wouldn't exist.

You said it, amazon owns mobi.

So shouldn't you rather stay true to the French origin of the Kindle success instead of succumbing to the cultural ePub-invasion imposed upon your country by the US-dominated consortium?

Amarican or not, it's an open format
I used mobi, now using ePub. and, the whole amazon debate put aside, i prefer ePub. More functionality, editable easily. Though ePub could be better if adobe didn't crippled it (drm and poor css support).

They are *not* going to give up Whispernet. And Whispernet is incompatible with ADEPT, in case you hadn't given it much thought.

Why would adept pose problem to Whispernet ? If so, just ditch the DRM.

Though the main point would be to have one, and only one, format. No mater if it's ePub or mobi. And get rid of the drm.

More importantly, if Amazon ever sees the need to "support ePub" they are *not* going to pull a Sony and roll over and play dead for Adobe; they'll do what B&N and Apple did; use their own DRM on *their* ebookstore.

That was a very stupid move there. And the B&N drm is adobe made If they use their own drm, it will still be : can't read, won't buy. They is no point for amazon in going ePub, unless it's drm-free, or adept.

I don't buy music from iTunes because it's aac. (Amazon mp3 rules!)
I don't buy books from amazon because it's azw. Even if they where to get rid of drm and make conversion easy, i'll still go he the shop proposing me ePub.

Thinking about it, it's all about : Would the extra sales for kindles / e-books if amazon used ePub compensate the sales lost by kindle users being able buy their books elsewhere. Most likely.
I mean, how many kindle user would go shop somewhere else, unless for books not available at amazon. Their prizes are OK, and they have the convenience that wishpernet brings. Or do they think their stuff is such crap their customer will go elsewhere at the first given occasion ?

When the day arrives that ePub makes *economic* and *business* sense to support (if ever) Amazon will (probably) think about it. But until then they are *not* going to do their enemies any favors.

It do make economic and business sense. At least if they mean to go outside US/UK.
Right now, they are making sony, bookeen and the fnac a favour.
Unless they do something rather soon, people in France will have books in ePub, they will not want to lose if amazon finally decide to sell French books. And thus, they will sell neither kindle, nor books.

[daffy4u]

Originally Posted by KenJackson

The monopoly they are desperately trying to create.

I need more than that.I keep seeing that word tossed around without any real explanation (or facts). Amazon doesn't and can't own all the ebooks available. They only control what they sell in their store. Show me the monopoly!

BTW, to the OP, sorry I seem to have hijacked your thread.

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by daffy4u

I need more than that.I keep seeing that word tossed around without any real explanation (or facts). Amazon doesn't and can't own all the ebooks available. They only control what they sell in their store. Show me the monopoly!

BTW, to the OP, sorry I seem to have hijacked your thread.

Exclusivity deals.
This kind of things just shouldn't be.

[K-Thom]

Any non-monopolist can negotiate exclusivity deals. This isn't an element of a monopoly.

[elemenoP]

I think Amazon is VERY happy with their closed system of Kindle & Mobi. And why shouldn't they be, Kindles are selling like hotcakes. It just boggles my mind when I come across Kindle users "in the wild" and they don't even know that there is such a thing as library ebooks, and that they are missing out. This in NYC, which has one of the biggest ebook collections around.

eP

[DiapDealer]

Amarican or not, it's an open format

Tired of hearing this. Epub has an open standard... yes. But not one of the various devices or apps that support epub - nor even the various publishers of epub content - adhere to that standard in any open "we are the world" kind of way. They all put their own twists on the standard. So what you have are 15 bastard flavors of epub floating around.

Having said that... I just don't care. I buy what I want, where I want, when I want. Epub, mobi, whatever... the world's big enough for both.

I don't share it, but at least I understand the need for wanting someone else to "like what you like". But I've never understood people that seem to have an inexplicable need for others to "hate what they hate".

[FF2]

Someone above mentioned it - the first timer purchases Kindle. Then they want library books. Can't do. Mumbling begins. Research follows. The next purchase might not be an improved kindle but one that can read library books. Amazon might react in a few years to shifting demands? But certainly not soon. Although someone mentioned the epub/library will not work via whispernet - that might keep things from changing.

[K-Thom]

Depends.

How large is the potential portion of library-books users among Kindle users/eBook device users in general?
Last time I used the library was when I was a teen. PD novels I can get elsewhere, and current titles are either those I want to *have and keep* or don't care about at all. And for decision making the free samples at Amazon are sufficient for me.

So, library eBooks never were an asset to me when considering eBooks.

[asjogren]

The *biggest* limitation for me is the inability to read public library books on my Kindle.

More general utility would be nice, but I doubt that ePub and especially a different DRM scheme are probably not the direction Amazon is willing to go.

However, I would love to see an interface built with Overdrive.com where the library books could be converted/delivered in some fashion to a Kindle.

Kindle is great if your use pattern is buying new books. If a significant pattern includes the public library, then the Kindle is a very poor fit.

I would recommend Kindle to more people IF it could read the majority of the Overdrive.com public library books.

[EowynCarter]

Tired of hearing this. Epub has an open standard... yes. But not one of the various devices or apps that support epub - nor even the various publishers of epub content - adhere to that standard in any open "we are the world" kind of way. They all put their own twists on the standard. So what you have are 15 bastard flavors of epub floating around.

Quite true. That why I said ePub would be better off without adobe Still, i like the possibility to fix some stuff on the ePub. I would love the publishers to get to right, but..
And i'm making some book, i just need sigil, works a treat. Even better, i can just use good old zip program to fix the basic stuff

Having said that... I just don't care. I buy what I want, where I want, when I want. Epub, mobi, whatever... the world's big enough for both.

yes and no. Having multiple format, and drm is unless. Just make a pain the user's life. Forcing him to stick to his first choice. Or suffer the mess that is converting.

I don't share it, but at least I understand the need for wanting someone else to "like what you like". But I've never understood people that seem to have an inexplicable need for others to "hate what they hate".

I don't hate mobi. It's just that ePub provide me with convenience that mobi don't.