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Old 11-24-2010, 10:36 AM   #31
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I'm going to have to be more careful. I just got out of jail for ripping the tag off my mattress. I certainly don't want to go back.
That warning on the tag applies only if you are selling the mattress. It does not apply to the end user.
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Old 11-24-2010, 10:39 AM   #32
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I'm going to have to be more careful. I just got out of jail for ripping the tag off my mattress. I certainly don't want to go back.
My DH has video of me detagging pillows. (nervously looks over shoulder)

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Old 11-24-2010, 11:12 AM   #33
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Irrelevant. You broke the license. The license usually describes what the penalities are for breaking it.
Where are the details of this license?
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:21 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by rlauzon View Post
Amazon doesn't sell eBooks with DRM. They sell licenses.
I just tested that. I created a new Amazon account, registered Kindle for Mac to that account, and bought a (free) book by clicking on the "Buy it now with 1-Click®" button.

I did not have to agree to any licensing terms to buy this ebook. The one link I did see with "Terms of Use" turned up a "We can't find the page you were trying to reach."

It seems to me that I've bought that book.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:26 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by rlauzon View Post
Fact: You agreed to a abide by a license as a condition for getting an eBook. By stripping the DRM off, you have violated that license.

That is illegal. What remains to be seen is what the publishers are going to do about it.



Since what you purchased as a license, not an eBook, there is no Fair Use argument here.
Not so... The site says BUY so I buy. It does not say rent or borrow. So if I am buying, then I am owning. If I am owning then I can strip the DRM since I own the eBook.

But as was said before, in some cases it is legal (no gray area) for the DRM to be stripped. But the issue is that nobody has challenged if the DMCA has killed fair use or not. So there is no way we can say DRM stripping is illegal and be sure we are correct.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:32 AM   #36
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You didn't purchase an eBook. You purchased a limited license to read the eBook on a specific device for a limited time. That license greatly limits your rights to access of the eBook.
Go to http://www.borders.com/online/store/...sku=1439192596 and have a look. You will see that the link says buy now & download. It does not say purchase a license. It does not say rent the eBook. It says BUY and when I buy something, I own it.

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By registering, accessing or using the Service you signify that you have read, understand and agree to be bound by these terms of use (these "Terms of Use" or this "Agreement"), whether or not you are a Registered User of the Service.
I do not think the above quote from Borders is actually legal. They hide the EULA very well. I've not read the entire thing. But, I've bought eBooks from Borders before reading any of that. So I never actually agreed to it. They never made it so I have to read it. So if this really isn't legal, then the entire EULA is not legal and cannot be enforced.
Last edited by JSWolf; 11-24-2010 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:34 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Has anyone who purchased any eBooks (in MS Reader format) from HarperCollins been able to download them using Windows 7 and MSIE 8? I already have all of them downloaded from before. But on Windows 7 with MSIE 8, I cannot download them. I do not know who's side the issue is on. It is the first time I've tried to download MS Reader eBooks using Windows 7.

Jon - I gave you the solution in another HC thread but I'll repeat it here. Only install the basic MS Reader, not the update. Only use 32 bit IE8 to download the books. I have no problems downloading LIT books this way.

I'll continue to strip DRM for personal use as long as the publishers and bookstores use "Buy" or "Purchase" buttons.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:38 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by rlauzon View Post
Fact: You agreed to a abide by a license as a condition for getting an eBook. By stripping the DRM off, you have violated that license.

That is illegal. What remains to be seen is what the publishers are going to do about it.



Since what you purchased as a license, not an eBook, there is no Fair Use argument here.
Not so. I purchased 2 ebooks last week from B&N. At no time was I ever presented with a license to agree to. Ever, even while making my account.

Either way, stripping the DRM is, I think, illegal because of the DMCA which states that it is illegal to bypass DRM. THAT mess does require a lawyer to figure out.
That said, very few of my ebooks currently possess DRM in any form. If a law is unjust we are compelled to disobey.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:43 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by TallMomof2 View Post
Jon - I gave you the solution in another HC thread but I'll repeat it here. Only install the basic MS Reader, not the update. Only use 32 bit IE8 to download the books. I have no problems downloading LIT books this way.

I'll continue to strip DRM for personal use as long as the publishers and bookstores use "Buy" or "Purchase" buttons.
I have no idea what version of MS Reader I have. But I am using a 32-bit version of Windows 7. But, I am able to download MS Reader files from Fictionwise. So I think it's HC and/or Overdrive.
Last edited by JSWolf; 11-24-2010 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:48 AM   #40
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Semantics. The bottom line is that you can be punished through the legal system.
Again, the difference between civil law and criminal law is hardly a matter of semantics no matter how much you might wish it to be.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:49 AM   #41
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Not so. I purchased 2 ebooks last week from B&N. At no time was I ever presented with a license to agree to. Ever, even while making my account.

Either way, stripping the DRM is, I think, illegal because of the DMCA which states that it is illegal to bypass DRM. THAT mess does require a lawyer to figure out.
That said, very few of my ebooks currently possess DRM in any form. If a law is unjust we are compelled to disobey.
But what we do not kno is if it is illegal to try to trump fair use or not. So until it is decide din a court of law, we won't know if DRM stripping is legal or not.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:54 AM   #42
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Personally I don't worry that much about DRM that much. Becuase of my computer security background I firmly believe in the old addage "for every measure security officers take to make information secure there are five or six ways around that security measure." I see many software packages out there that will remove the security from the ebooks that I am not that worked up over it.

I preferr to keep my ebook purchases on the Borders account thus I am nto taking up hard drive space on my PC. I know that the borders books are DRMed but I am not that concerned. I am more concerned about getting a ebook store to sell me ebooks for the lowest possible price.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:56 AM   #43
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But what we do not kno is if it is illegal to try to trump fair use or not.
If it's not already, it soon will be.
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:40 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by rlauzon View Post
You didn't purchase an eBook. You purchased a limited license to read the eBook on a specific device for a limited time. That licence greatly limits your rights to access of the eBook.
You ignored the rest of what I said. Just where do I agree that I am licensing and not buying?
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:44 PM   #45
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I have one book at the HC ebook store. Sadly, it's in Lit and I don't have an activated copy of MSReader on this computer (and last time I tried to activate one I couldn't).

Luckily, it was a free book, because I'm writing it off.

It's the glory of DRM - all it really does is make it more difficult for people to do what their payment supposedly enabled them to do.
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