Going Rogue

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Pretty words. Peace on earth, goodwill towards men.

Well, that only works when everyone feels that way.

When there are those out there who would love to see you and your way of life wiped off the face of the earth, for no other reason than because you don't follow their religion, its kinda hard to play nice.

Oh I think we are actually close to an understanding here. (hold your guns everyone).

The difference is that it's not really about us succumbing to their religion imo (trust me, I live in a part of denmark where half is muslim).

It has all to do with social ability and respect for one another. Yes, I am 33 so I have been to a disco and gotten a beating from what we call a 2. generation newcomer. But because one is frustrated. Because one is violent (or even a terrorist) doesn't mean that we should incarcerate anyone the least suspicious. Most of all it's a social matter imo.

When you haven't got any future you are easily recruitable for the extremists.

So the point is that when we raise their standards of living, the threat diminishes for us. We cannot (imo) suppress them. Their need is to great. And USA is to much of an obvious sacapegoat for them.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Hey! We got it off health care!

I don't get that?


care to explain?

[93terp]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Polls can be tweaked to show whatever results are wanted. They are meaningless.

When you can show me a poll that includes every citizen of the US, I'll believe it.

As for the "torture", we aren't dealing with a section of humanity that plays fair........after 9-11 not one terrorist attack occurred on US soil........until Fort Hood.

If any of that torture was responsible for the safety of this country, I say go for it.

I could give a crap for the treatment of people who think beheading innocents on camera and putting it on the web is the right thing to do.

You just don't like the fact that the majority of Americans don't agree with you. But the only the poll that truly matters is this one: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...ama_vs_mccain/

As for the rest of the tripe in your post, your views can only be described as repulsive, ignorant and truly hateful. I pity you.

[Laz116]

LOL I said this wouldn't happen again... but here I am again arguing a serious topic. I just can't help myself.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by 93terp

I'm sure his party's views on gays & lesbians causes him constant pain & heartbreak, especially when you consider that the majority of today's Republicans are bigots/racists/xenophobes.

Let me guess. You aren't republican.

[QUOTE=Laz116;662903][QUOTE=Harmon;662892]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Oh you really don't get the geneva convention do you.
Tell that to the American soldiers murdered, mutilated and had their bodies dragged thru the streets.


You know what: with your ignorance, now I get the idea of why you are going to bury yourself in a slum of debt and inflation these next years. You are just to goddamn dumb to raise yourself above those 33% you have to pay of everyge dime just to pay the rate.

You know what? Should you ever need our help, for any reason..........................

We'll be there. Like we've always been across the world when help was asked of us.

Thats how frickin' dumb we are.

[93terp]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

In reply to 93 terps allegations of torture.

They aren't allegations of torture, they are FACTS. Ge your head out of the sand & start living in the reality-based world. Your comments remind me of Constanza from "Seinfeld", who said "It's not a lie if you believe it."

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by 93terp

As for the rest of the tripe in your post, your views can only be described as repulsive, ignorant and truly hateful. I pity you.

Really? If your opinion mattered, I might care.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Can you tell me when and what happened to these people?

Just google american ciztizen and patriot act... you find many cases.

Here is a page with some examples.

http://duncanentertainment.com/timeline.php

And I am sure there are more that we never knew about.

Bottom line is. if you believe in this country and swear to protect and uphold the constitution (which every president does) we can't just make excuse and exceptions in our dealings of criminals.

Also, if I am correct the US are signatories of the 1949 Geneva conventions in which we, as a country, agree to treat war prisoners and civilians of enemy states "Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, their religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity."

Aren't we a great country that is true to it's word and it's values in ALL cases? Some of our greatest leaders said it best:

Benjamin Franklin wrote: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

"How soon we forget history... Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And, like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." James Madison

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." Abe Lincoln

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Laz116

I really don't understand why you or me should be anything more worth than the average iraqi or afghan. But you seem willing to accept that your government without any legislation to back it up submits the average afghan or iraqi to torture. Would you accept those premises for yourself?

Well, yeah, actually. If I were going around with a gang of terrorists who made it their mission to kill innocent civilians and generally indulge in deadly mayhem, and the people we were trying to kill picked me up, I'd rather expect to be tortured.

But I'd trick them! I'd tell them everything they wanted to know. It's a fairly practical way to avoid being tortured, at least some of the time.

BTW, the average Iraqi or Afghan doesn't seem to be waging war against the US. So they probably aren't being tortured. It's not like the army is out there randomly picking up Iraqis and Afghans in order to torture them. Usually, those people don't know anything, so why waste the energy?

Oh, all of this is based on accepting your assumption that what is being done to these people is actually torture, legally speaking. I don't think it really is. Not that it isn't rather unpleasant.

But the truth is, you don't have any idea at all about what the "law" is, or what "legislation" is required, or what "legislation" exists. You have no knowledge whatsoever about the laws of the United States.

So basically, when you start talking about laws and legislation, you don't know what you are talking about. I don't mean that as an insult. I mean it as a literal statement of fact, in the same way that I would mean it if I said that you don't know anything about quantum physics. (You aren't a physicist, are you?)

On the other hand, I happen to be a US lawyer, and I've done a little reading about the legal uses of what you think of as torture. I don't pretend to be an expert, but I know enough to tell you that the legal basis for the government's treatment of the prisoners seems correct. I would expect the government to win any case against the military for the use of "torture," if it came to court here in the US. I don't know about what might happen in some other country, but frankly, I don't much care.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by 93terp

They aren't allegations of torture, they are FACTS. Ge your head out of the sand & start living in the reality-based world. Your comments remind me of Constanza from "Seinfeld", who said "It's not a lie if you believe it."

Did you read the post? I was referring to your previous post........and I already answered that.

[Laz116]

[QUOTE=desertgrandma;662912]Let me guess. You aren't republican.

[QUOTE=Laz116;662903]

Originally Posted by Harmon

You know what? Should you ever need our help, for any reason..........................

We'll be there. Like we've always been across the world when help was asked of us.

Thats how frickin' dumb we are.

I'm not sure you'll be there. Are you in Somalia fx. Now you think about it because it does hurt those shipping routes not having a stable government. Where have you been that didn't have some sort of US agenda?

But generally: I'm not trying to downplay the greatness of USA. You could be legend. I am just irritated of the tarnishes of that state. As sarkozy (french prime minister, whom I rarely agrees with) recently said: I only critisize you because you are not as great as we want you to be. I want you to uphold that flame of liberty and freedom around the world. Or at least be a torch for the world. But when you don't. When you're selfish, acts like a child. Treats democracy as if it was a candy for you to hand out and take away. Then I'm disappointed. At the moment universal rights seems to be only for americans... then I'm troubled. You should be greater than that. You should be wiser than that.

Otherwise you just revert to: those with power has the right (which is really the founding of USA). But if so, you can't really complain about the suppressed's "terror".

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Lady Blue

This thread certainly has Gone Rogue!

So far it has been a respectful if passionate discussion. I hope it continues to be respectful. It is easy to start attacking the person and not the argument in threads like this.

So, just a friendly reminder from your neighborhood moderator.... lets continue to keep it civil. I don't want to have to pull this thread over.

<Moderator>
BOb

[GlennD]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Name one case where it has stopped a imminent terrorist attack. Your reasoning is faulty: We torture... nothing happens... ergo torture works.

....


Oh you really don't get the geneva convention do you.

Let me google that for you:
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/46949

That's fairly recent (April 2009), there are lots of articles listed on Google that indicate torture did or did not reveal any useful information. Depends on what you want to believe, I suppose.


Geneva convention?

It doesn't apply to civilian combatants that are captured while engaging military forces. Which brings to mind your very valid point that many of the Guatanomo prisoners were not captured by American forces, and may not have ever engaged American forces.

And in the interest of being "the good guy", it would seem to be best to adhere to the Geneva convention regardless of whether a strict interpretation requires it.

BUT, I tend to agree with DesertGrandma on this. IF a prisoner has indeed been fighting against the US (I say that because I agree with you that there is a lot of question about whether many of these prisoners were ever combatants) I have no problems with interrogation techniques up to and including waterboarding. It does no permanent (physical) damage, and if we get information that saves life I'd say that's a fair trade.

Especially when the enemy we're fighting against couldn't care less about the Geneva convention. DG has mentioned it already - but frankly an enemy that chops off heads and proudly posts the video needs something to be scared of.

[93terp]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Let me guess. You aren't republican.

You are a keen observer of the obvious. And based on where the Republican party is headed I wouldn't vote for any Republican for all the money in the world.

Annoy a conservative - think for yourself.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by 93terp

They aren't allegations of torture, they are FACTS. Ge your head out of the sand & start living in the reality-based world. Your comments remind me of Constanza from "Seinfeld", who said "It's not a lie if you believe it."

I have to laugh. "Reality-based world," and then you rely on television for your example!