Amazon Censorship Expands

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by jamthecat

Oh, there was fanfare. A reporter for KCPQ, the Fox affiliate in Seattle, did a report using my book as an example of pronography "still available through Amazon, despite their T&Cs...."

OK, so Fox News defamed you. (Maybe.)

Unless, of course, they do have a legitimate cause to label your book as "pornography."

Proving your position on this can be rather difficult, since the boundaries that separate "pornography" from "erotica" from "fiction with sex in it" are highly subjective, relative and fluid. Nor, as the author, do you necessarily have a privileged role in asserting where it lands, since you now have a vested interest in stating that "it's not porn."

Originally Posted by jamthecat

Which begs the question -- what else would you have me do? Roll over and play dead?

I do support your right to protest, and agree that you are getting the short end of the stick.

However, I disagree with some of your characterizations of the event. No contracts were violated; Amazon is not obligated to carry a specific title; and I don't see any evidence that Amazon badmouthed you.

Simply because you got shafted does not mean that any complaint you can think of is automatically justified and/or proven true. Some may be valid, others may not.


On a side note, if you are serious about taking legal action, I recommend you talk to your lawyer immediately about the wisdom of making public statements on the matter, especially on blogs and web forums. Your attorney may say it's fine and/or a good strategy; but it may be the case that any and all statements you make can be easily taken out of context and used by the defense.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by jamthecat

I guess contracts mean nothing, be they implied, imprinted or written in indelible ink. Amazon's a private company that can do as it likes. And I'm sure you would not mind your bank feeling the same way about your mortgage or car loan or credit card agreement. They can change the rate ANY time they please and the contract be damned. Right.

Amazon has not violated its contract (unless your publisher had an agreement that they'd carry the book for a specific length of time), but it has (1) acted directly against its stated goals, (2) accepted slander (libel?) and harmed your income & reputation thereby, and (3) dealt with you in bad faith, by implying that your books *now* violate their content terms when they didn't before. Those might all be actionable; they're not specifically "breach of contract."

It's possible that contracts that say "we can stop doing business with you at any time with no warning and no reasons" are not legal on their own, but there are an awful lot of them, and challenging that concept would take extensive legal setup. (Contracts that say "we can change the terms of this contract at any time with no warning" are not legally enforceable in my state, but that's somewhat different.) An expectation of communication and rational standards, established through verbal contract or other business procedures, may apply even if the written contract directly says otherwise, but you'd need a GOOD business lawyer to push that one.

About calling your books "pornography:" it's a meaningless term. It has no legal definition (in the US; I don't know about other countries). "Obscene" material--which does have a legal definition, albeit a subjective and fairly useless one--can be "pornographic," but the issue of what that means has never directly been addressed.

Too much of the US is sex-phobic, and they've been allowed to declare that "pornography is evil" without ever having to say what that is, so everyone tacitly agrees that porn is bad without agreeing on whether that means "just sex with no coherent plot" or "contains explicit sexual scenes" or "kinky, not-normal sex" or "sex in circumstances that a lot of people don't think are sexual" or something else.

Amazon is counting on the stigma of "pornography" being so strong that the authors they penalize won't be able to challenge them, not in the courtroom (because their contracts are vague and self-serving), and not in the court of public opinion, because there's always people willing to declare "who CARES what happens to the PERVERTS who read and write that stuff?" rather than realize that they're letting a commercial enterprise dictate morality.

[boxcorner]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

... Too much of the US is sex-phobic, and they've been allowed to declare that "pornography is evil" without ever having to say what that is, so everyone tacitly agrees that porn is bad without agreeing on whether that means "just sex with no coherent plot" or "contains explicit sexual scenes" or "kinky, not-normal sex" or "sex in circumstances that a lot of people don't think are sexual" or something else ...

That illustrates one of the US paradoxes quite well. Such a powerful sex-phobic lobby group, able to manipulate companies, the media, politicians, etc, in a country that is probably, if not the largest, one of the world's largest producers of pornography, yet according to a survey by the Journal of Economic Perspectives, reported by
New Scientist in 2009, conservatives are the biggest consumers of pornography in the US.

[CWatkinsNash]

Originally Posted by jamthecat

I appreciate your response.

I can see my books being categorized as erotica because of the sex in them, but they also have realistic characters with arcs, solid storylines and have a point to make.

Every definition of pornography I can find says it's all about the sex. It's tittilation and an appeal solely to one's prurient needs. My books do not meet those criteria by any stretch of the imagination. The only reason Amazon pulled my books was because that reporter of KCPQ labeled them porn in a news segment..

I don't know if you've seen my previous posts, but I may be the only person on this thread who looked at the books (besides you, of course). I completely agree with your description. I was only able to read the samples because the B&N prices are out of my budget. (My limit for ANY book right now is $6; I would have purchased them both otherwise.) My assessment was that it was not pornography. In fact, I stated that though it was labeled as gay erotica, I felt this was done for purposes of reaching a niche market. (Novels with gay sexual content haven't quite gone mainstream yet.)

I think anyone who is claiming it is porn clearly hasn't even looked at it. It doesn't even meet my definition of erotica in the usual sense. The characterization and story development is more like that of a contemporary novel. But someone, apparently your publisher, made the decision to clearly market it as gay erotica. I see the value of this in terms of where you started, but I fear that will make things a lot harder where you are now and I have no idea how that can be overcome.

I wish you luck in this. My advice would be what someone else has mentioned - consult legal counsel before continuing your internet attack. I know you want to scream at everyone right now - anyone would in your situation - but you need to protect your interests going forward. You know how media works - that's what started this mess. If they decide to bite again, they will twist everything they can find to "prove" that they were right, and they will turn it on YOU instead of your books. Limit the ammo they have available to them.

If you want to continue to use the internet as your platform, can you find a blogger who will post a review? I think honest discussion about the books is more likely to be helpful than attacking Amazon's actions. Just like people who jump on the "pornography" bandwagon, lots of people will jump on the "Amazon is evil bandwagon". That seems good in terms of numbers, but when it comes down to protecting yourself, your interests and your reputation, those people can't help you. They can cheer you on, and that feels good, but ultimately it's only distracting everyone from whatever legal grounds you may be able to pursue.

I hope you'll at least think about this. I'm glad that B&N hasn't made any moves yet, your stuff is still available there. I wish you the best of luck.

[eppythacher]

Originally Posted by elcreative

Wow, Amazon must be quaking in their boots... this forum is not exactly the most influential group in the world... even if everyone here used Amazon (and probably most don't) and all stopped at once, I doubt they'd even notice. We are a minority (and a small one at that), self selected by being on this forum unlike the majority of Amazon's customers happily reading on their Kindle...

As for the 1350+ posts on these two threads... well most of them are posted by a fairly small group of people hardly indicative of a massive army of outraged people going to terrorise Amazon with an effective boycott of their services...

When big companies fall they have to start somewhere. Back in the day, HP made the best printers, they would last 20 years. Now, not so much. In the US, I don't think too many people read books. Of that small population of book readers, how many of them support Amazons actions of banning books? If Amazon keeps banning books it just helps Google and their other competitors for no good reason. At&t and comcast have such bad service that people will flock to other companies if they had a choice. Based on their past actions, i'm sure At&t, comcast, and Amazon could care less that they are losing customers when they have a monopoly.

[jamthecat]

Originally Posted by CWatkinsNash

I don't know if you've seen my previous posts, but I may be the only person on this thread who looked at the books (besides you, of course). I completely agree with your description. I was only able to read the samples because the B&N prices are out of my budget. (My limit for ANY book right now is $6; I would have purchased them both otherwise.) My assessment was that it was not pornography. In fact, I stated that though it was labeled as gay erotica, I felt this was done for purposes of reaching a niche market. (Novels with gay sexual content haven't quite gone mainstream yet.)

I think anyone who is claiming it is porn clearly hasn't even looked at it. It doesn't even meet my definition of erotica in the usual sense. The characterization and story development is more like that of a contemporary novel. But someone, apparently your publisher, made the decision to clearly market it as gay erotica. I see the value of this in terms of where you started, but I fear that will make things a lot harder where you are now and I have no idea how that can be overcome.

I wish you luck in this. My advice would be what someone else has mentioned - consult legal counsel before continuing your internet attack. I know you want to scream at everyone right now - anyone would in your situation - but you need to protect your interests going forward. You know how media works - that's what started this mess. If they decide to bite again, they will twist everything they can find to "prove" that they were right, and they will turn it on YOU instead of your books. Limit the ammo they have available to them.

If you want to continue to use the internet as your platform, can you find a blogger who will post a review? I think honest discussion about the books is more likely to be helpful than attacking Amazon's actions. Just like people who jump on the "pornography" bandwagon, lots of people will jump on the "Amazon is evil bandwagon". That seems good in terms of numbers, but when it comes down to protecting yourself, your interests and your reputation, those people can't help you. They can cheer you on, and that feels good, but ultimately it's only distracting everyone from whatever legal grounds you may be able to pursue.

I hope you'll at least think about this. I'm glad that B&N hasn't made any moves yet, your stuff is still available there. I wish you the best of luck.

Thanks, CWatkinsNash. It's my intention to read through all of the comments; problem is finding the time to focuson them. You make some good points and offer some fine suggestions. So far I've tried asking Amazon to reconsider their actions, politely (albeit still a bit angrily), and gotten no response. I also contacted the reporter who did the profile and interview with the head of Kindle and pointed out the...oh, shall we say, incongruity(?) of his stated purpose. No response. Now I'm doing the screaming thing. And still no response. I'm sure eventually I'll calm down enough to figure out the next step. Almost sounds like the five stages of being pissed off.

I'm sure Amazon thinks if they ignore me long enough, I'll give up and go away. They don't seem to get the idea that an author's book is like his child; and if you diss my kids, I'm comin' after you.

[jamthecat]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

OK, so Fox News defamed you. (Maybe.)

Unless, of course, they do have a legitimate cause to label your book as "pornography."

Proving your position on this can be rather difficult, since the boundaries that separate "pornography" from "erotica" from "fiction with sex in it" are highly subjective, relative and fluid. Nor, as the author, do you necessarily have a privileged role in asserting where it lands, since you now have a vested interest in stating that "it's not porn."



I do support your right to protest, and agree that you are getting the short end of the stick.

However, I disagree with some of your characterizations of the event. No contracts were violated; Amazon is not obligated to carry a specific title; and I don't see any evidence that Amazon badmouthed you.

Simply because you got shafted does not mean that any complaint you can think of is automatically justified and/or proven true. Some may be valid, others may not.


On a side note, if you are serious about taking legal action, I recommend you talk to your lawyer immediately about the wisdom of making public statements on the matter, especially on blogs and web forums. Your attorney may say it's fine and/or a good strategy; but it may be the case that any and all statements you make can be easily taken out of context and used by the defense.

Tell you what, Kali...since you think I'm going about this all wrong, what would you have me do? I'm asking for an honest suggestion here, and as you already know, giving up and letting Amazon get away with this quietly isn't an option. So what do I do?

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

It's possible that contracts that say "we can stop doing business with you at any time with no warning and no reasons" are not legal on their own, but there are an awful lot of them, and challenging that concept would take extensive legal setup.

I think that there's no reason to conclude that this isn't completely legal; the author, after all, was also allowed to stop doing business with Amazon at any time with no warning and no reasons.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

I think that there's no reason to conclude that this isn't completely legal; the author, after all, was also allowed to stop doing business with Amazon at any time with no warning and no reasons.

An author may not have to provide reasons, but he has to provide warning to Amazon to stop doing business with them--he can't remove the book from their listings on his own.

He's likely unable to require "remove the book NOW;" it's more likely that he'd be able to say "remove the book immediately," and they'd take a few days (or up to a couple of weeks) to stop accepting sales of it. He also can't enforce "stop selling my book immediately, and send me all the money you owe me for past sales by the end of the week."

The fact that these phrases are common in business contracts doesn't make them universally enforceable, and the inequity between supplier and distributor may open the distributor for challenges.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by jamthecat

Tell you what, Kali...since you think I'm going about this all wrong, what would you have me do? I'm asking for an honest suggestion here, and as you already know, giving up and letting Amazon get away with this quietly isn't an option. So what do I do?

Again: If serious legal action is in the works, talk to your attorney about whether it's a good idea to publicly discuss your case on blogs, web forums, interviews and the like.

(I'd also read this article, and perhaps do more research, if your attorney prefers to work on a contingency basis rather than a fee.)

If your attorney green-lights it, and if you can afford it, I'd hire a public relations specialist and follow their advice rather than a bunch of people on the web. Sometimes you get what you pay for.


If you are still willing to hear a non-professional's view and/or just sound out my position:

Unfortunately, I have serious doubts that, in the short term, Amazon is likely to relist your book.

Legally I don't think you can force them to sell it, which leaves publicity and political pressure. Call me a fatalist, but: No matter how unfair it is, or what the content actually is, I think you will have a hard time getting a lot of people to publicly go to bat for a book with the title "How To Rape A Straight Guy."

Plus, what's your goal? Get listed again on Amazon? Draw attention to increase your profile and sales? Become a cause celebre? Wreak revenge on your tormentors? Each of these will require a very different strategy, with different potential consequences for you and/or your work.

My best guess, again as a non-pro, is that your most practical option is to make some hay out of the episode, get your name out there, drive sales via other outlets, and as much as it sucks, don't make it your idée fixe. Every professional has setbacks -- many far, far worse than this.

I.e. you do have options. It's up to you to recognize that, and decide which one(s) are worth pursuing.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

An author may not have to provide reasons, but he has to provide warning to Amazon to stop doing business with them....

Re-read the TOS. The author can suspend the account at any time for any reason, Amazon just puts in a 5-day cushion to pull the title(s).

Asymmetry also is insufficient to invalidate a contract. Many artists (notably musicians) sign contracts which allow the publisher/company to drop the artist at will and/or refuse to release material, but do not provide the artist any way to exit the contract. Drastic (and expensive) legal actions are often required to revise or break the contract.

I doubt you're going to get anywhere on the basis that the contract is "asymmetrical" or "unfair." All that matters, afaik, is that the contract does not stipulate illegal behavior.

[caleb72]

Originally Posted by CWatkinsNash

I don't know if you've seen my previous posts, but I may be the only person on this thread who looked at the books (besides you, of course). I completely agree with your description. I was only able to read the samples because the B&N prices are out of my budget. (My limit for ANY book right now is $6; I would have purchased them both otherwise.) My assessment was that it was not pornography. In fact, I stated that though it was labeled as gay erotica, I felt this was done for purposes of reaching a niche market. (Novels with gay sexual content haven't quite gone mainstream yet.)

I think anyone who is claiming it is porn clearly hasn't even looked at it. It doesn't even meet my definition of erotica in the usual sense. The characterization and story development is more like that of a contemporary novel. But someone, apparently your publisher, made the decision to clearly market it as gay erotica. I see the value of this in terms of where you started, but I fear that will make things a lot harder where you are now and I have no idea how that can be overcome.

This is almost exactly what I've assumed.

I only think of a novel as erotica if I feel that its sex scenes are designed to titilate in some way. Many exerpts from "romance" novels appear to be titilating but perhaps without the required explicitness for me to think of it as erotica. However, I have read fairly explicit sex scenes that don't titilate in any way which I would not call erotica. But if I feel that the sex scenes are only there to facilitate the story, I may well revise my opinion. So, even with some guidelines I guess it's pretty subjective. As I've said in a previous post though, the "gay" qualifier does not influence my own internal classifications.

I'm still not sure about the difference between erotica and pornography given my own frame of reference, but I do not have a problem with books labeled either way.

I've joined Barnes & Noble. I always thought of their material as painfully geo-restricted, but in any case I own a Kindle. Anyone know if it's possible to "convince" a B&N purchase to become a Kindle file? Don't answer that, I can research that myself.

Regards
Caleb

[boxcorner]

Originally Posted by CWatkinsNash

Post #424
I don't know if you've seen my previous posts, but I may be the only person on this thread who looked at the books (besides you, of course). I completely agree with your description. I was only able to read the samples because the B&N prices are out of my budget ...

The author's description may well be completely correct and I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to doubt it. However, I certainly wouldn't want to judge any book solely on the basis of some samples, any more than I would want to judge a book on the basis of its cover, alone.

It seems to me that unless any author's description is based solely on the samples that you have read, then there remains the possibility that the remainder of the book might be different - equally it might not. I haven't read the samples, or books, so I fully accept that I am less qualified that you, in this respect, and understand that you feel in a better position to judge. Nor do I doubt the sincerity of your endorsement of the author's description. I am just offering my thoughts on drawing conclusions based on samples.

Similarly, without knowing all the facts behind any of Amazon's decisions, it would appear that any comments about the rights and wrongs of their decisions amount to little more than speculation. Unless and until it can be demonstrated that Amazon has broken any laws, then I assume that they are going about their business in a lawful manner.

It's a free market economy; people are free to make choices. Any author who Amazon turns away is free to take their business elsewhere. Likewise, if any customers are unhappy with Amazon's decisions, then they are free to take their custom elsewhere.

[jamthecat]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Again: If serious legal action is in the works, talk to your attorney about whether it's a good idea to publicly discuss your case on blogs, web forums, interviews and the like.

(I'd also read this article, and perhaps do more research, if your attorney prefers to work on a contingency basis rather than a fee.)

If your attorney green-lights it, and if you can afford it, I'd hire a public relations specialist and follow their advice rather than a bunch of people on the web. Sometimes you get what you pay for.


If you are still willing to hear a non-professional's view and/or just sound out my position:

Unfortunately, I have serious doubts that, in the short term, Amazon is likely to relist your book.

Legally I don't think you can force them to sell it, which leaves publicity and political pressure. Call me a fatalist, but: No matter how unfair it is, or what the content actually is, I think you will have a hard time getting a lot of people to publicly go to bat for a book with the title "How To Rape A Straight Guy."

Plus, what's your goal? Get listed again on Amazon? Draw attention to increase your profile and sales? Become a cause celebre? Wreak revenge on your tormentors? Each of these will require a very different strategy, with different potential consequences for you and/or your work.

My best guess, again as a non-pro, is that your most practical option is to make some hay out of the episode, get your name out there, drive sales via other outlets, and as much as it sucks, don't make it your idée fixe. Every professional has setbacks -- many far, far worse than this.

I.e. you do have options. It's up to you to recognize that, and decide which one(s) are worth pursuing.

Thanks for your input.

BTW, the lawyer I spoke with says I'd have to get a lawyer in Seattle to do any suing, since everything happened there. I have up to a year to decide, and since I'm slated to be in Seattle in October, I may take that long.

And BNET is now carrying the story -- http://www.bnet.com/blog/technology-...t-say-why/7639

Publicity, I'm getting.

[tponzo]

Originally Posted by Nyssa

As to the author of the book - What were you thinking!?! You really couldn't have come up with a better, less offensive title for the book? I, personally, would stay away from any book (regardless of genre) with the word "rape" in the title.

And so you should if that's your feeling. (Actually mine too usually.) This is what free enterprise is all about. People vote with their wallets.

Amazon probably gave these titles a sales boost because people who never would have even looked at them will now want to see what all the fuss is about.