12% of ebooks are self-published; most are rubbish, claims editor

[Prestidigitweeze]

Why do so many people assume that story is always synonymous with quality?

For me, great and admirable writing frequently has nothing to do with story. I can even think of great writers who had utter contempt for the idea of a coherent story. This is not to say that readers who privilege story are wrong to do so, but only that their consensus is not necessarily truth.

Re the idea that larger publishers are necessarily better indicators of quality than indie ones:

Indie publishers have the opportunity to offer less economically viable books than mainstream publishers who want the written equivalent of summer blockbusters (cf. the earlier reference to memoirs and self-help books by celebs -- most mainstream presses now publish those at the expense of carefully written novels by accomplished writers who are often never heard from again, which for me are far more important (Nightwood, by Djuna Barnes, Replacement, by Tor Ulven)).

At issue is the ratio of people who are trying to make money and/or a name for themselves and have no understanding of, nor patience for, achieving stylistic mastery -- people who will write fifteen unspeakably bad books as opposed to a single good one. In that sense, I'll have better luck downloading samples from a Dalkey Archives list than weeding through the Hinduism-vast slush pile that is Smashwords.

[Ken Maltby]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

Why do so many people assume that story is always synonymous with quality?

For me, great and admirable writing frequently has nothing to do with story. I can even think of great writers who had utter contempt for the idea of a coherent story. This is not to say that readers who privilege story are wrong to do so, but only that their consensus is not necessarily truth.

Hmm... are you a speech writer, perhaps?

I can't conceive of anyone that I could call a hack, much less a "great writer" that would hold such an opinion. The whole point of writing anything is to communicate some coherent idea. If you consider incoherent speech, written down or otherwise, to be of value you might have a future in the "music" business, but I have no idea where you are finding these "Great Writers". Is this a New York City thing?

Luck;
Ken

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Ken Maltby

Hmm... are you a speech writer, perhaps?

I can't conceive of anyone that I could call a hack, much less a "great writer" that would hold such an opinion. The whole point of writing anything is to communicate some coherent idea. If you consider incoherent speech, written down or otherwise, to be of value you might have a future in the "music" business, but I have no idea where you are finding these "Great Writers". Is this a New York City thing?

This is a very strange opinion for fiction. It would be very boring to read fiction if writers thought that they only communicated a coherent idea. Or boring of they all thought that they needed to communicate an idea.

I usually prefer books with a strong story but that does not mean that I do not understand the point that fiction without story can be extremely good also.

[Catlady]

Fiction IS story.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Fiction IS story.

Since poetry is fiction your statement is trivially shown false.

[Ken Maltby]

You are using incoherent Poetry to bash the value of a coherent story line as a measure of a non-rubbish ebook?! This stinks of the overvaluation of the modern version of a "liberal education" and the self-indulgent view that any nonsense can be extoled as Art, that has infused our colleges and the self-appointed elites of society.

Ken

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by tompe

Since poetry is fiction your statement is trivially shown false.

All poetry is not fiction.

The simplest definition of fiction is something that is not true. A made up story, or a simple lie both are equally fiction AFAIK.

As we are discussing ebooks according to the thread title I would be most happy if you would post some links to several fictional ebooks or even paper books or poetry, plays or something close that is an enjoyable work to a reasonable audience that has no story. Could be possible, and would be interesting. It seems a bit of an oxymoron in that if it is something that Is not true, then it implies a statement or a story, hence the term making up stories, but what do I know.

Helen

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by tompe

Since poetry is fiction your statement is trivially shown false.

Poetry is not fiction.

P.S. The poetic form, of course, can be employed to tell a story, but poetry per se is not fiction. If I write an essay in poetic form, it doesn't morph into fiction.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Poetry is not fiction.

P.S. The poetic form, of course, can be employed to tell a story, but poetry per se is not fiction. If I write an essay in poetic form, it doesn't morph into fiction.

Then the Wiki page for fiction is mistaken. So since you know what fiction means you can correct the wiki page.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Ken Maltby

You are using incoherent Poetry to bash the value of a coherent story line as a measure of a non-rubbish ebook?! This stinks of the overvaluation of the modern version of a "liberal education" and the self-indulgent view that any nonsense can be extoled as Art, that has infused our colleges and the self-appointed elites of society.

Eh, no. Only bashing your incoherrent arguments. Instead of telling what it stinks of could you maybe instead argue better?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

All poetry is not fiction.

The simplest definition of fiction is something that is not true. A made up story, or a simple lie both are equally fiction AFAIK.

As we are discussing ebooks according to the thread title I would be most happy if you would post some links to several fictional ebooks or even paper books or poetry, plays or something close that is an enjoyable work to a reasonable audience that has no story. Could be possible, and would be interesting. It seems a bit of an oxymoron in that if it is something that Is not true, then it implies a statement or a story, hence the term making up stories, but what do I know.

Well, I have read a lot of short stories that are not stories as such. They are more vignettes. They only want to give a feeling for the reader.

I recently read Gravity's Rainbow and I doubt there was a story in that book.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by tompe

Then the Wiki page for fiction is mistaken. So since you know what fiction means you can correct the wiki page.

Very likely it is in need of correction if it does say what you indicate. Of course Wikipedia isn't professionally edited like Britannica is for example, but is put together by anyone and everyone who can access the web. Fiction as we know it now did evolve in part from poetry. The stories told by Homer (The Illiad &The Odyssey) were written in a poetic format and meant to be sung in the original Greek for example, but Prose and Poetry in modern times have gone down two separate paths. Poetry (IMO) is more about abstract ideas like beauty, bravery, love, hate, etc. and Prose is more about how characters interact together around a common theme.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by crich70

Very likely it is in need of correction if it does say what you indicate.

What it says is: "Traditionally, fiction includes novels, short stories, fables, fairy tales, plays, poetry, but it now also encompasses films, comic books, and video games."

I have always thought that a written text considered as a work was either fiction or non-fiction. So I do not see how nearly all poetry can be anything else than fiction.

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by Ken Maltby

Hmm... are you a speech writer, perhaps?

I can't conceive of anyone that I could call a hack, much less a "great writer" that would hold such an opinion. The whole point of writing anything is to communicate some coherent idea. If you consider incoherent speech, written down or otherwise, to be of value you might have a future in the "music" business, but I have no idea where you are finding these "Great Writers". Is this a New York City thing?

Luck;
Ken

The problem is that you're privileging plot as the only possibly mode of narrative coherence. Works to which that idea doesn't really apply include The Unnamable, by Samuel Beckett, Quarantine, by Juan Goytisolo, Replacement, by Tor Ulven, Concrete, by Thomas Bernhard, The Lime Twig, by John Hawkes, and the list goes on.

You could, of course, do the obvious and facile thing: Look for synopses of those novels and then claim that story was the primary concern. But that would be missing the method and focus of those novels, which actually have to be read for their point of emphasis to be understood.

John Hawkes was famously disinterested in continuity to the point that I think his carefree discarding of plotlines is a defect. But that he felt that way about conventional ideas of story form is common knowledge.

Does anyone who manages to read Robbes-Grillet actually proceed due to involvement with the story?

[hidari]

good point. many a fine writer do not follow classic storylines... but pulp sells...

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

Why do so many people assume that story is always synonymous with quality?

For me, great and admirable writing frequently has nothing to do with story. I can even think of great writers who had utter contempt for the idea of a coherent story. This is not to say that readers who privilege story are wrong to do so, but only that their consensus is not necessarily truth.

Re the idea that larger publishers are necessarily better indicators of quality than indie ones:

Indie publishers have the opportunity to offer less economically viable books than mainstream publishers who want the written equivalent of summer blockbusters (cf. the earlier reference to memoirs and self-help books by celebs -- most mainstream presses now publish those at the expense of carefully written novels by accomplished writers who are often never heard from again, which for me are far more important (Nightwood, by Djuna Barnes, Replacement, by Tor Ulven)).

Indeed many a fine writer do not follow classic storylines.... but pulp sells... not convoluted stories though I prefer the later

At issue is the ratio of people who are trying to make money and/or a name for themselves and have no understanding of, nor patience for, achieving stylistic mastery -- people who will write fifteen unspeakably bad books as opposed to a single good one. In that sense, I'll have better luck downloading samples from a Dalkey Archives list than weeding through the Hinduism-vast slush pile that is Smashwords.