People who want no DRM are impractical dreamers...

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Enumeration added for better answering

1. What color dog do we, the posters in this thread, have in this hunt? In other words, why do we oppose DRM?
   
2. Is it because DRM inhibits our ability to buy what we want to buy? Not in the least. I could go to Amazon this moment and buy any ebook they sell.
   
3. Is it because DRM inhibits our ability to use what we buy in the way we want to use it? Not in the least. I could strip the DRM off that ebook and do whatever I want with it.

1. Because we want to be allowed to do what we are able to do.
2. Oh, could you? 'tis all new to me - AFAIR Amazon allows you to lease only.
3. Legally it does in some countries.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by Piper_

Well, taking everything we know into account (e.g., who is cool with things like: adding no DRM, encouraging TTS, allowing Lending, lower prices vs. who is fighting or disabling those customer-centric offerings) I'd be more likely to conclude that it's the publishers who are most strongly insisting on the DRM and the EULA. At this ponit, anyway. As you say, things might have changed.

I don't know about the EULA, but from everything I've heard it's Amazon that's insisting on DRM, not the publishers. We've had the same story from multiple independent sources, and never heard anything to the contrary that wasn't freely acknowledged to be speculation.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Piper_

Well, taking everything we know into account (e.g., who is cool with things like: adding no DRM, encouraging TTS, allowing Lending, lower prices vs. who is fighting or disabling those customer-centric offerings) I'd be more likely to conclude that it's the publishers who are most strongly insisting on the DRM and the EULA. At this ponit, anyway. As you say, things might have changed.

Oh, most of the publishers, certainly. The Big Six insist on it. But Amazon won't (or wouldn't) allow other publishers to skip it--they were required to allow DRM as part of their contract for selling ebooks through Amazon.

There's hope that this will change; initially, Amazon's claim, or implication, was that since the Big Six insisted, all their software was designed to put DRM on the ebooks, and they weren't going to change that arrangement just for a few outliers. But with the rise of self-publishing allowing sales without DRM, that's no longer the case. If they're still not allowing publishers to opt-out, it's because they're struggling to keep customers locked to their store, not because it costs too much to bother.

There are a growing number of small publishers who don't like DRM and don't think it does them any favors; in the past, Amazon told them that to sell ebooks through Amazon, they had to use the Kindle's DRM. I haven't heard if that's changed in the last few months.

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I don't know about the EULA, but from everything I've heard it's Amazon that's insisting on DRM, not the publishers. We've had the same story from multiple independent sources, and never heard anything to the contrary that wasn't freely acknowledged to be speculation.

I honestly don't know anything more, either. It just sounds odd that they'd insist on it for BH publishers - or Baen, if that's still the case - but be cool not using it for anyone else, doesn't it?

I've missed any other reports of publishers who wanted to sell without DRM but couldn't - most pro-DRM prop I've seen comes from publisher reps and others who say they're speaking for the industry or authors.

I think I was mostly swayed by what Konrath and what that other author blogged about on the topic... well, that and the things I listed.

I'm not one to defend whatever Amazon does - I love Sony's reader, and I can't stand the knee-jerk fanboys. I just tend to see Amazon as being more customer-centric than publishers are.

[Worldwalker]

Whether doing what we want to do is legal or not is, while not trivial, is not grounds for what stonetools claims we're trying to do -- destroy the book industry. We can do want we want to do, whether or not it's legal to do so. If that was really all that mattered, most people would just quietly keep on keepin' on. I don't see anyone who would deliberately harm their own best interests (putting an end to the supply of ebooks, or books overall) in exchange for the ability to use books as they should be used. It's too high a price.

But stonetools is saying that there are only two choices -- accept crushing limitations on one's ability to use an ebook, or face the destruction of the book industry. Pick one or the other. You're with him or against him. I'm trying to point out that we, the readers, are not accepting that false dichotomy, and that we want both usable books and a supply of future books -- and that, as rational decision-makers, we would not choose an option that would cut off our noses (and our books) to spite our faces.

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Oh, most of the publishers, certainly. The Big Six insist on it. But Amazon won't (or wouldn't) allow other publishers to skip it--they were required to allow DRM as part of their contract for selling ebooks through Amazon.

There's hope that this will change; initially, Amazon's claim, or implication, was that since the Big Six insisted, all their software was designed to put DRM on the ebooks, and they weren't going to change that arrangement just for a few outliers. But with the rise of self-publishing allowing sales without DRM, that's no longer the case. If they're still not allowing publishers to opt-out, it's because they're struggling to keep customers locked to their store, not because it costs too much to bother.

There are a growing number of small publishers who don't like DRM and don't think it does them any favors; in the past, Amazon told them that to sell ebooks through Amazon, they had to use the Kindle's DRM. I haven't heard if that's changed in the last few months.

Thanks, elf. That makes the most sense. I guess we need to see if things changed across the board or not. I'll see what I can find out.

[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Last we were able to track down, Amazon allows self-publishing individuals to go DRM-free, but publishing houses are still required to apply DRM. The reason Baen's ebooks aren't available through Amazon is that Amazon won't let them sell without DRM.

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think that's true anymore. Baen and O'Reilly both have books available on Amazon's Kindle store, e.g., The Spirit Ring.

The problem seems to have been that Amazon's normal workflow puts DRM on e-books by default for the larger publishers, so a second workflow had to be created for non-DRM'ed books.

Andrew Savikas [21 April 2009 11:12 AM]

@dmoynihan -- You're right about DTP not requiring DRM, but we (like most publishers) don't use DTP to sell titles via Amazon. That's handled through other mechanisms. And yes, Amazon told us that we could not sell on Kindle without DRM, and we repeatedly (vociferously) protested.

The new Amazon ingestion workflow allowing us to sell unencrypted mobi files is the first time they've done so for a non-DTP submission (i.e, the source of the vast majority of Kindle titles).

Source

[Freeshadow]

in this case I'm with you worldwalker
but I better hold back comments about somebody who continously NOT reads arguments of others (see mass of posts above) because this thread might turn very envoirnmental then (i.e. go green)

[Piper_]

OK, a quick Google found these two hits:

In January, last year, Amazon made it easier for people who publish through Amazon to choose DRM or no DRM, and this report came out, which included this:

Amazon just got in touch to say the change is not about allowing DTP users to publish without DRM — it’s about making it easier for publishers to choose DRM or no DRM. The choice has always existed for DTP publishers, a spokesman said, and the default state was no DRM. (That’s different from the situation with larger publishing houses, where anti-DRM publishers have complained about the difficulty of removing “Kindle’s ‘compulsory DRM.’”) I updated the headline and lead to reflect that.

...Which led me to this article:

Over 160 O'Reilly Books Now in Kindle Store (without DRM), More on the Way
17 April 2009

I'm happy to announce that more than 160 O'Reilly books are now available on Kindle (both Kindle 1 and Kindle 2), and are being sold without any DRM (Digital Rights Management).

http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/04/ove...n-the-way.html

So, we know that Amazon has always had DRM disabled by default, but an option for self-publishers, and in Spring '99, O'Reilly was able to publish their books there DRM-free.

Seems like Baen would also be allowed to as of that time, if O'Reilly is, but who knows. Maybe they aren't, or maybe they decided to stick with their own store now rather than paying a cut to Amazon.

[CyGuy]

Here is a very interesting read about piracy and the music industry, it seems relevant to this conversation.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...bal-future.ars

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by bhartman36

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think that's true anymore. Baen and O'Reilly both have books available on Amazon's Kindle store, e.g., The Spirit Ring.

The ebook version of The Spirit Ring isn't a Baen Book. It was first published in 1992, well before webscriptions got off the ground. It was reprinted in 200, but didn't make it to webscriptions then, either.

The ebooks was published through Fictionwise in 2002. I suspect that Ms Bujold retained or retrieved ebook rights herself.

I suspect that any Baen/O'Reilly books that are available as Kindle ebooks are there because the author has retained ebook rights in some form.

[EDIT: It seems I'm wrong!]

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by CyGuy

Here is a very interesting read about piracy and the music industry, it seems relevant to this conversation.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...bal-future.ars

I've been trying to push that point across for a few posts now - stonetools has never responded to the point about the shift to singles.

[toddos]

Something to keep in mind -- just because we can rip DRM off of most ebooks today (everything but iBooks is broken) doesn't mean we won't be able to rip it off tomorrow. Saying, "DRM is okay because I can remove it," is short-sighted.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by toddos

Something to keep in mind -- just because we can rip DRM off of most ebooks today (everything but iBooks is broken) doesn't mean we won't be able to rip it off tomorrow. Saying, "DRM is okay because I can remove it," is short-sighted.

I was thinking the same thing. If you look at the way Sony reacted to the PS3 hack, it's not that far fetched that Amazon (or Adobe or whoever) could react the same way. Get those tools suppressed, have their creators locked up in legal battles, and then update the encryption.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by toddos

Something to keep in mind -- just because we can rip DRM off of most ebooks today (everything but iBooks is broken) doesn't mean we won't be able to rip it off tomorrow. Saying, "DRM is okay because I can remove it," is short-sighted.

I suspect iBooks DRM will be cracked as soon as Apple comes up with an iBooks reader for computers, rather than iDevices. IIRC, Topaz remained uncracked until the Kindle-for-PC program was released, and then it was quickly cracked.

It's hard (impossible?) to crack the ibook on the ipad, because the ipad doesn't have access to the full array of programming tools that computers can use, and as things stand, I don't think you can get an iBook onto a PC to look at the insides with a hex editor. Even if you can, you can't see the difference between one that's readable by your pc and one that's not, to figure out where/how the device ID gets authenticated.

As soon as iBooks can be read on PCs, someone will take one apart & analyze the code used to lock it, and create a key to either unlock it or copy the contents out. Apple may be fighting to keep iBooks on their devices to avoid this--which is part of why iBook sales aren't high; despite all the lovely mobile devices we've got, most people who read ebooks still read them on desktop or laptop computers.