PDF is not an eBook format

[ahi]

Originally Posted by igorsk

Check samples from Hindawi:
http://www.hindawi.com/epub.html

Check out The Memoirs of Casanova and find me an ePub or any other non-PDF version that looks better or at least as good, and post some screenshots.

If you are right, it shouldn't be hard... particularly since the PDF edition I made isn't even meticulously well done by a long shot.

Or, for that matter, find a version of The Hobbit in a reflow format that looks nicer than the PDF version.

- Ahi

[ahi]

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

It is possible to do it. Once again, blame adobe for not doing their job.

No. It is not possible. Plain and simple.

And I get the impression--from the lack of elaboration--that you have not the slightest clue how it might be possible, but assume that technology is the automagical solution. If I am wrong, do correct me, and I shall apologize lavishly.

- Ahi

[EowynCarter]

No. It is not possible. Plain and simple.

And I get the impression--from the lack of elaboration--that you have not the slightest clue how it might be possible, but assume that technology is the automagical solution. If I am wrong, do correct me, and I shall apologize lavishly.

And what is the mobipocket reader doing ? Right, it's not perfect, but it's a start, and way better than noting at all.

[WillAdams]

igorsk suggested epub samples by Hindawi:

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jbb/2009/637942.html

For some reason on pg. 3 (Section 2.1) the degree symbol causes really awful linespacing when reading this in Sony's ebook library (on the Mac) --- seems to be pervasive actually.

Similar problem on the following page caused by a superscript -1 --- actually, this seems to happen throughout.

The spacing of paragraph 2.3 is horrible

Two word stack on pg. 6 ``...range of | ...volume of''

Another stack on pg. 7 (Section 3) hIL-7 hIL-7....

Absolutely horrible break on pg. 8 --- ``3'' is allowed to break away to the next page from ``Figure''

Figure 4 caption is continued to the next page --- scaling the figures down, allowing the user to magnify them would arguably be a better solution.

Awful empty spaces before Figures --- they really should be allowed to ``Float'' in the text, w/ the text flowing in around them to fill in the empty spaces.

The H&J allows paragraphs to end w/ a single line quite frequently.... arguably a matter of style, but most paragraphs are long enough to allow re-breaking to prevent it.

Figure 7 actually allows the caption to appear on the page following subfigures 7a and 7b --- shrinking all 4 to a single page and allowing magnification would be my choice.

The page numbers appearing over the text along the right edge is quite distracting --- couldn't there be a slight margin to prevent that?

The .pdf is markedly better (though sized for letter / A4, so only suitable for viewing on a large screen), but it does have some infelicities (allowing the reference [7,8] to break on the first page...) --- given a choice, I'd d/l the .pdf to my Fujitsu Stylistic and read it there.

William

[ahi]

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

And what is the mobipocket reader doing ? Right, it's not perfect, but it's a start, and way better than noting at all.

Presumably Microsoft Word quality hyphenation for English, or English and a few other major languages... or English hyphenation regardless of language.*

In other words... a broken product.

And the point of the hyphenation problem is that unknown words have the very real ability to break the software's ability to typeset things in a visually acceptable way. Not to mention that incorrect hyphenation of words is worse than no hyphenation at all.

Perhaps the chasm between PDF and reflow advocates is due to the latter camp caring about the quality of their eBooks far less than they are willing to admit.

- Ahi

* Will future eBook readers contain hyphenation patterns for all scripts and all languages? And no--please do not answer--this must be the stupidest rhetorical question I have asked in a long time.

[Taylor514ce]

I'm a technologist, a programmer, but I specialize in PostScript, PDF, and document automation, and have a detailed knowledge of typography. PostScript and PDF don't replace or automate typography. They allow layout artists and professional typographers to use computer tools to practice their profession.

Hyphenation is only one aspect of typography that resists automation. Proper leading and kerning, white space utilization, even justification, benefit from the human touch. There are algorithms and formulas for all of the above, but none are perfect.

In fact, poor typography is my major complaint with ebook technology. So much so that, though it might be sacrilegious to admit this here, I've reverted to buying printed books again. Not 100% - I still love and use my Reader, but with each potential book purchase, I ask myself if it might be a book I re-read from time to time, and if so, I lean toward buying a printed version.

That said, I don't think PDF is viable as an ebook format. The very things that allow accurate reproduction of the printed version work against automatic reflow (pagination, custom fonts, and font sizes).

The sad truth though is that quality doesn't matter. We've already seen this in the graphic arts industry. Time was that print buyers would come in with loupes and color swatches and meticulously examine proofs for quality. Today, with digital presses, good enough is good enough. I think quality typography will go the way of quality color reproduction - it will become a niche skill reserved for artistic and luxury markets. Everyone else will be satisfied with "good enough".

[WillAdams]

Abecedary suggested looking at Christie, Agatha: The Mysterious Affair at Styles. v2. 29 Aug 2009...

- Could we find a script font which makes a nice ff ligature for the cover?
- why uni-directional stick quotes for the ToC: Chapter V. "It Isn't Strychnine, Is It?"
- the same issue of single words ending paragraphs
- left quote instead of apostrophe on pg. 6 ``“Weeds grow like house afire. Can’t keep even with ‘em. ''
- nasty doubled up stack on pg. 7 Mr. Mr. Hastings Hastings
- pg. 9 --- really need a hair space betwixt the single and double quotes in ``“It might be a ‘she,’” I suggested.'' in the font which is being used.
- another stack at the bottom of pg. 9 ``of of''
- a lot of the paragraphs really need hyphenation --- the spacing in them is quite gappy --- while others are too tight and really need larger word-spacing --- is there no control for this?
- pg. 10 - stack / river is | of | of
- it's rather disconcerting how one gains or loses more than a line from page-to-page to prevent widows / orphans

William

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by ahi

Presumably Microsoft Word quality hyphenation for English, or English and a few other major languages... or English hyphenation regardless of language.

In other words... a broken product.

And the point of the hyphenation problem is that unknown words have the very real ability to break the software's ability to typeset things in a visually acceptable way. Not to mention that incorrect hyphenation of words is worse than no hyphenation at all.

Perhaps the chasm between PDF and reflow advocates is due to the latter camp caring about the quality of their eBooks far less than they are willing to admit.

- Ahi

Or maybe having enough technical background to realize why pdf can't really be used there ?

If you say the programmatic hyphenation can't work, how can you possibly relfow pdf ? Worse, the "old" hyphenation will stay.

Multiple version like you want ? That's a lot of version if you want to really accommodate everyone, all of them, according to you, should be proofread. Do you really think publishers are going to proofread that many versions ? When they won't bother doing the job even once ? (and they should !) Come down back on earth.

That said, I don't think PDF is viable as an ebook format. The very things that allow accurate reproduction of the printed version work against automatic reflow (pagination, custom fonts, and font sizes).

Thank you !

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

I'm a technologist, a programmer, but I specialize in PostScript, PDF, and document automation, and have a detailed knowledge of typography. PostScript and PDF don't replace or automate typography. They allow layout artists and professional typographers to use computer tools to practice their profession.

Hyphenation is only one aspect of typography that resists automation. Proper leading and kerning, white space utilization, even justification, benefit from the human touch. There are algorithms and formulas for all of the above, but none are perfect.

In fact, poor typography is my major complaint with ebook technology. So much so that, though it might be sacrilegious to admit this here, I've reverted to buying printed books again. Not 100% - I still love and use my Reader, but with each potential book purchase, I ask myself if it might be a book I re-read from time to time, and if so, I lean toward buying a printed version.

Thank you... though I do not expect anyone to believe this coming from you either.

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

That said, I don't think PDF is viable as an ebook format. The very things that allow accurate reproduction of the printed version work against automatic reflow (pagination, custom fonts, and font sizes).

Tagged PDFs, multiple fixed layouts versions encapsulated in a single file, et cetera. I see PDFs meeting those concerns (excepting font customization, which I do not see as a legitimate need or want) more easily than ePub meeting those that PDF already can handle.

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

The sad truth though is that quality doesn't matter. We've already seen this in the graphic arts industry. Time was that print buyers would come in with loupes and color swatches and meticulously examine proofs for quality. Today, with digital presses, good enough is good enough. I think quality typography will go the way of quality color reproduction - it will become a niche skill reserved for artistic and luxury markets. Everyone else will be satisfied with "good enough".

This is only true for the legion of current eBook reading device owners... the early adopters suffering from unadmitted buyer's remorse.

And since all that's required for high quality eBooks is for the publisher to do the work from the get-go with the intention of doing both an eBook and a paper book (i.e.: generating both from the same corrected and proofread source)... I see early adopters' disregard for quality as ultimately irrelevant to the future of eBooks.

Getting eBooks typographically right just doesn't require the superhuman effort everybody seems to believe it does--therefore when publishers start to care about the opinion of eBook reading device owners, and do not want shitty eBooks to reflect badly on them, they will start getting their books right... and they will do it easily, cheaply, and effectively.

- Ahi

[ahi]

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

Or maybe having enough technical background to realize why pdf can't really be used there ?

If you say the programmatic hyphenation can't work, how can you possibly relfow pdf ? Worse, the "old" hyphenation will stay.

Multiple version like you want ? That's a lot of version if you want to really accommodate everyone, all of them, according to you, should be proofread. Do you really think publishers are going to proofread that many versions ? When they won't bother doing the job even once ? Come down back on earth.

1) There will be standard screen sizes. Fixed layouts will be design for those with a regular and a large print font size. I see that being no more than 2 or at most 4 versions. (With additional font sizes being possible via reflow.)

2) The reflowed PDF's hyphenation in the worst case scenario will be no worse than that of any other reflow technology. And no, the existing hyphenation won't stay with tagged PDFs. Are you making things up as you go along?

3) You don't seem to know/understand the difference between proofreading and checking pages for typographic integrity. Proofreading is about content, and it is time-consuming. Checking for typographic integrity, depending on how demanding you are, can be fairly quick--4 editions, done with the right tools, should take significantly less time than the proofreading the content [underlying all editions] did.

4) You're harping on about publishers neglecting eBooks today. Irrelevant for a discussion about the future. Early printed paper books were full of errors to. Today they aren't. eBooks will go the same way.

As for coming down to earth... the answer to the problem you perceive might be for you to do a bit more research into the topic that you are wisely commenting upon.

- Ahi

[Taylor514ce]

ahi -

I think multiple fixed layouts is the only way to go, but it seems so inelegant, doesn't it? In essence, publishers would be "typesetting" each ebook three or more times (small, medium, large). I cannot see them going that route. I think it is much more likely that quality typography will vanish, sacrificed to expediency.

[Abecedary]

Originally Posted by WillAdams

Abecedary suggested looking at Christie, Agatha: The Mysterious Affair at Styles. v2. 29 Aug 2009...

....

William

William, I should have mentioned that I haven't actually proofed that book yet--I pretty much threw it together and was going to get around to sitting down and reading it in the next week or so. So corrections like straight quotes and left single quotes instead of apostrophes are much appreciated (I simply ran TextWrangler's 'educate quotes' feature on the block of text and hoped for the best, which obviously wasn't enough).

However, many of your complaints are limitations of the technology. This is the point that some here are repeatedly trying to make, but that seems to keep falling on deaf ears. Nonexistent hyphenation, which results in poor justification, rivers, and stacks. And even if there were hyphenation, the stack/river problem wouldn't be fixable due to the reflowability of e-text. I'm not sure if there are thinspace/hairspaces in HTML, nor if any of the renderers would pay attention to them if they were inserted. However, I will look into that for future updates. Thanks for your input.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

ahi -

I think multiple fixed layouts is the only way to go, but it seems so inelegant, doesn't it? In essence, publishers would be "typesetting" each ebook three or more times (small, medium, large). I cannot see them going that route. I think it is much more likely that quality typography will vanish, sacrificed to expediency.

It seems inelegant, until LaTeX and/or PDF supports elegantly storing multiple layouts (without storing the content twice or more times over).

As for typesetting multiple times... it's not so time consuming as to be prohibitive. These admittedly less than pristine versions (8 of them) were created with well less than a days work. 2-4 versions of an average length book shouldn't take longer than a day to do tolerably, or longer than a week to do really well.

And, as stated before, I find nothing more incredulously unlikely than the suggestion that bookmaking will turn to crap because of eBooks. Hell, I do not even see any realistic prospect of wider eBook reading device adoption until the typography issue is fixed.

- Ahi

[EowynCarter]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

ahi -

I think multiple fixed layouts is the only way to go, but it seems so inelegant, doesn't it? In essence, publishers would be "typesetting" each ebook three or more times (small, medium, large). I cannot see them going that route.

Exactly.
And because of that the choice is : a perfectly typesetted pdf, working for only a part of the population, or an almost perfect ePub, working for everyone. Choice there should be obvious isn't it ?
And that's why i think hardback will survive e-books for a long while, e-books will never make it for a properly edited hardback.

2) The reflowed PDF's hyphenation in the worst case scenario will be no worse than that of any other reflow technology. And no, the existing hyphenation won't stay with tagged PDFs. Are you making things up as you go along?

I though that was how pdf worked, but then, i don't really know how pdf works so.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by EowynCarter

And because of that the choice is : a perfectly typesetted pdf, working for only a part of the population, or an almost perfect ePub, working for everyone. Choice there should be obvious isn't it?

Utter and complete nonsense.