Access to Knowledge: YEA or NAY

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Then we must simply abandon all systems.

And how do you figure that? Quite a few systems work reasonably well, only systems that depend on people being nice to each other are doomed. This truth has been understood for a long time, and we have managed to develop systems that work reasonably well. Democracy for example.

--
Bill

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

But only because you asked about knowledge and meant entertainment. Misleading would be an epic understatement.

No, I asked the question because some people do need access to the digital library, and they cannot afford the price of books. A thousand page treatise on the genetics of Triticum is usually pretty pricey.

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

And how do you figure that? Quite a few systems work reasonably well, only systems that depend on people being nice to each other are doomed. This truth has been understood for a long time, and we have managed to develop systems that work reasonably well. Democracy for example.

--
Bill

It is my belief that any system that is built around guarding against those who would take advantage of the system, rather than those who would not is doomed to eventual failure. Simply because of its inefficiency.

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

No, I asked the question because some people do need access to the digital library, and they cannot afford the price of books. A thousand page treatise on the genetics of Triticum is usually pretty pricey.

And any person who needs to know about the genetics of wheat is likely working at a University or research facility where such libraries exist. If you simply want to read it for your own edification, that is nice, but don't expect the authors of said work, or society to feel obligated to subsidize it.

It is my belief that any system that is built around guarding against those who would take advantage of the system, rather than those who would not is doomed to eventual failure. Simply because of its inefficiency.

What grade did you get in history?

The most durable systems tend to be the ones that play one group off against the other, either formally or informally. Party politics, and the inevitable rise of a second party whenever one party collapses has played a big part in preventing tyranny in the United States.

Likewise, Nobels versus the King and later Parlament versus the King played a similar role in English history.

--
Bill

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

No, I asked the question because some people do need access to the digital library, and they cannot afford the price of books. A thousand page treatise on the genetics of Triticum is usually pretty pricey.



It is my belief that any system that is built around guarding against those who would take advantage of the system, rather than those who would not is doomed to eventual failure. Simply because of its inefficiency.

Tell that to pensioners who get their pension checks stolen or those living in most dictatorships where force is the only law.

While I might admire those who look only at the good in people it is pretty clear to me that many people do bad things. Many more people would do bad and/or worse things if there were no systems to stop them. Without laws against exploitation, exploitation becomes the norm. Even with laws it happens too often.

A thousand page treatise on the genetics of Triticum is usually pretty pricey.

Just curious how much? I couldn't find a price for one or even find a 1000 page one. Although I do think it could be obtained legally without taking out a second mortgage.

Helen

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

And any person who needs to know about the genetics of wheat is likely working at a University or research facility where such libraries exist. If you simply want to read it for your own edification, that is nice, but don't expect the authors of said work, or society to feel obligated to subsidize it.

What grade did you get in history?

The most durable systems tend to be the ones that play one group off against the other, either formally or informally. Party politics, and the inevitable rise of a second party whenever one party collapses has played a big part in preventing tyranny in the United States.

--
Bill

Who are you to say what any person needs to know about? And is not the point of a digital library to allow those who cannot make it to the university to at least have access to the same knowledge that the university offers?

If by durable you mean a few hundred years, then yes these systems do seem durable, but if we extend the timeline to a few thousand I don't think these systems are very durable. At least not without some extreme measures being taken to ensure the the system survives. Meaning waste of resources.

What is proposed is a system where exploitation is not possible, in the realm of art all that is required is an end to copyright.

[speakingtohe]

Nonsense!

[bill_mchale]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Who are you to say what any person needs to know about? And is not the point of a digital library to allow those who cannot make it to the university to at least have access to the same knowledge that the university offers?

Of course he could always go to a University. Its generally not that hard to get physical access to a University Library (especially a public University).

In any case, the point here is that society has no particular obligation to make that knowledge universally available. It might be nice to have access to that information, but you don't have a right to it. And you certainly don't have a right to read a particular book.

If by durable you mean a few hundred years, then yes these systems do seem durable, but if we extend the timeline to a few thousand I don't think these systems are very durable. At least not without some extreme measures being taken to ensure the the system survives. Meaning waste of resources.

If you could point to a system that has lasted longer than a few hundred years then we can talk. Most states that have lasted longer have evolved through several different phases (i.e., Rome when from republic to monarchy to tetrarchy to a monarchy and then started to collapse, Japan has had an emperor for 1200 years, but his actual amount of power has changed drastically over that whole period). The closest any organization has come to lasting with its power structure intact is the Catholic Church... and of course the actual power the Pope held, and how he was chosen has changed fairly significantly over time.

What is proposed is a system where exploitation is not possible, in the realm of art all that is required is an end to copyright.

You mean except for the artists who will be expected to produce without any financial benefit for themselves.

--
Bill

[Freeshadow]

And again a treatise on genetics is not the latest chicklit/SF/erotica/whatever megaseller and we are at the beginning again. Knowledge for free - I'm fine with, knowledge empowers; entertainment: no way. Work for it or entertain you with yourself.

[QuantumIguana]

Stamping your feet and screaming "but I waaaaaant it!!!" isn't any basis for demanding that books be free. What good is free knowledge when you're incapable of processing it?

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

You mean except for the artists who will be expected to produce without any financial benefit for themselves.

--
Bill

So you believe that we will not choose to compensate our artists if given the choice?

[nogle]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

So you believe that we will not choose to compensate our artists if given the choice?

Well, you choose not to compensate.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by nogle

Well, you choose not to compensate.

The retail price of all I read last year exceeded my annual income. And I could have read more.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

The retail price of all I read last year exceeded my annual income. And I could have read more.

The purchase price of a new Ferrari last year exceeded my annual income. So I chose to drive something else.

[Freeshadow]

Well gigs that's the trouble with luxury goods like entertainment. One could usually process more than afford.

[ucfgrad93]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

The retail price of all I read last year exceeded my annual income. And I could have read more.

Apparently you need a better paying job.