Amazon vs. Hachette Update - It's About Price

[ApK]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Does anyone know what the "book warnings" she gets from Amazon might be?

She apparently writes erotica of some sort. I'd guess she's referring to some sort of explicit content warnings.

[conan50]

Originally Posted by petrucci

It is my opinion that e-book prices are vastly overinflated. At $9.99, an e-book is still more expensive than an average movie ticket. A movie takes a whole lot more work to produce.

Some may argue that e-book prices need to be high because sales volume is low. I agree that if sales volume is truly low, then a higher price may be justified. However, it is ironic that some of the more expensive e-books are popular ones, which have a high volume of sales.

+1
I was just thinking today that book prices in general are vastly inflated for the current climate.
30-40 years ago there was no Internet, no computer games, no video on demand, etc. For books to survive they need to be convenient to purchase and relatively inexpensive. Amazon gives us that. Hatchette is seriously opposed to that formula. My wallet sides with Amazon.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by conan50

+1
I was just thinking today that book prices in general are vastly inflated for the current climate.
30-40 years ago there was no Internet, no computer games, no video on demand, etc. For books to survive they need to be convenient to purchase and relatively inexpensive. Amazon gives us that. Hatchette is seriously opposed to that formula. My wallet sides with Amazon.

You mean pbooks and ebooks? Why should a book be cheaper than a movie ticket? With a movie ticket you get to see the movie exactly once and it takes only about 2 hours. A regular book takes much longer to read and entertain you, and you can read it as often as you want. A little bit different once the dvd comes out - that is usually more expensive than the movie ticket and pretty close to a hardcover book in price.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

You mean pbooks and ebooks? Why should a book be cheaper than a movie ticket? With a movie ticket you get to see the movie exactly once and it takes only about 2 hours. A regular book takes much longer to read and entertain you, and you can read it as often as you want. A little bit different once the dvd comes out - that is usually more expensive than the movie ticket and pretty close to a hardcover book in price.

Very true.

Another thing to consider is how the entertainment industry has changed just in the last 30 to 40 years. Prices have gone up quite a bit across the board. Right now, a large part of most movie's profits come from DVD, PPV, cable and streaming. Only a small number make significant money in the theaters. Some movies don't even bother releasing in the theater anymore.

Prior to the 80's, quite a few authors earned much of their income from selling stories by the word to magazines before releasing them as paperback books. Up until the past 20 years or so, only the top authors released in hardback. The business model for most of the entertainment industry has been changed quite a bit in my lifetime.

[conan50]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

You mean pbooks and ebooks? Why should a book be cheaper than a movie ticket? With a movie ticket you get to see the movie exactly once and it takes only about 2 hours. A regular book takes much longer to read and entertain you, and you can read it as often as you want. A little bit different once the dvd comes out - that is usually more expensive than the movie ticket and pretty close to a hardcover book in price.

The bigger point I would make is that books have serious competition as entertainment compared to decades ago. They cannot expect to cost as much as they once did. They also have more competition within the book world, now anyone can publish a book, sell it for .99, so that even at $9.99 price point the traditionally published book ought to be ten times better than the indie selling for a buck. And usually they are not much better if at all. Yet traditional publishers want to raise their ebook prices higher. It is suicide. It is the 'buggy whip' problem if they are doing this to prop up hardcover sales.
I will give you a concrete example to the problem: Netflix. $10 a month gets you tons of shows to watch, almost exactly the cost of buying 1 best selling ebook at Amazon.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Another thing to consider is how the entertainment industry has changed just in the last 30 to 40 years. Prices have gone up quite a bit across the board. Right now, a large part of most movie's profits come from DVD, PPV, cable and streaming. Only a small number make significant money in the theaters. Some movies don't even bother releasing in the theater anymore.

You bet it's changed. Things are cheaper and instantly available now. When it comes to digital entertainment, there are only two things I'll pay for - videos and audiobooks; even then, I put a cap on what I'm willing to pay. Videos are strictly a subscription service like Netflix or Prime Videos and audiobooks top out at $1.99 each.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by conan50

The bigger point I would make is that books have serious competition as entertainment compared to decades ago. They cannot expect to cost as much as they once did. They also have more competition within the book world, now anyone can publish a book, sell it for .99, so that even at $9.99 price point the traditionally published book ought to be ten times better than the indie selling for a buck. And usually they are not much better if at all. Yet traditional publishers want to raise their ebook prices higher. It is suicide. It is the 'buggy whip' problem if they are doing this to prop up hardcover sales.
I will give you a concrete example to the problem: Netflix. $10 a month gets you tons of shows to watch, almost exactly the cost of buying 1 best selling ebook at Amazon.

Serious competition, huh? I am sure there is many readers that also enjoy other forms of entertainment. And then again, there is those that never read, at least not books. Maybe a gossip magazine or the occasional newspaper. Those people will not read a book no matter how cheap including free. Shocking, but don't be surprised. I am not only talking about kids that barely read the mandatory books in school, but also adults.

You say Netflix, I say Oyster, ScribD, and Kindle Unlimited. Not exactly sure if Oyster and ScribD are sustainable in the long run though. I am thinking that KU may outlive them both. Books are no longer without subscription services. There is always the library as well that offers pbooks, dvds, ebooks, streaming movies, and audio books. So even if you are poor, you can read if you decide that you want to read.

[leebase]

I agree with John Scalzi's writing on this topic. Neither Amazon nor Hachette are your friend. They are both businesses pursuing their own interests. If authors wish to price their work for $9.99 they already can, or even less...they already do.

Why should we care if Hachette wants to price their own products higher? Let people price as they will and let the market react accordingly.

Of course Amazon want's ebooks to be SOOOO much cheaper than physical books that nobody buys paper books any more. That will put all book stores out of business except online book stores where Amazon reigns.

Amazon touts paperbacks. Paperbacks aren't released at the same time as the hard back. Amazon equally doesn't want ebooks time windowed. Effectively, Amazon wants to put an end to hard back books. Which makes sense for Amazon. Who's not your friend. Not the authors friend. Neither are the publishers.

Authors have a choice to sell direct via Amazon or work with a publisher. Readers have plenty of choice to buy cheap ebooks if they don't want to put for new. Just like I never bought hard backs and waited for the cheaper paper back.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

You bet it's changed. Things are cheaper and instantly available now. When it comes to digital entertainment, there are only two things I'll pay for - videos and audiobooks; even then, I put a cap on what I'm willing to pay. Videos are strictly a subscription service like Netflix or Prime Videos and audiobooks top out at $1.99 each.

Like every consumer...you have your own price point. Even Amazon's 9.99 price point is higher than you'll pay. And that's ok. So what does it matter if Hachette prices their book at $14.99 Hachette will only be hurting themselves if they price their products too high.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by petrucci

It is my opinion that e-book prices are vastly overinflated. At $9.99, an e-book is still more expensive than an average movie ticket. A movie takes a whole lot more work to produce.

Some may argue that e-book prices need to be high because sales volume is low. I agree that if sales volume is truly low, then a higher price may be justified. However, it is ironic that some of the more expensive e-books are popular ones, which have a high volume of sales.

Great. What an opportunity you have as an author to sell underneath the competition. What an advantage to you that Hachette is charging "too much" for ebooks.

The last thing you aught to want, as an author who thinks ebooks cost too much, is to have your competition forced to lower their prices.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Steve, no it is not who posts here that should convince people to side with Amazon. You should side with Amazon for these 2 reasons:

• you are a customer of Amazon
• you buy ebooks from Amazon

All of a sudden Amazon is not customer friendly by demanding lower prices to customers? Singling out Hachette when they are the onLy ones needing a new contract atm? The letter is nice propaganda, though.

I am an Amazon customer. I am a Prime member. Buy ALL kinds of stuff at Amazon. And I buy ebooks from Amazon.

I do NOT agree with Amazon on this issue...never have. I don't ONLY want to have Amazon as an option to buy books. I do not want Amazon to destroy the hardback book options, nor run every physical book retailer out of business.

If a book comes out that I want to read...but at a price I do not wish to buy...then I don't buy the book. I buy another book instead. Or go watch a movie, or play a video game. There are SOO many options. I can wait for the price of the ebook to come down. Or simply never buy it.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

It seems to me that you are equating consumers as a whole with the minority of planetary readers who buy books the same year they are published.

The traditional system where books are only available in expensive hardcover editions at first, and gradually become available at lower prices through paperback publication, the used book market, and libraries, was characterized by extraordinary social justice. Consumers who could afford to pay top dollar got the book first, but their reading experience wasn't materially superior to that of the less affluent. Just the timing was different.

ebooks are not the same products as pbooks, whether hardback or paperback. Publishers who want to gouge ebook readers as opposed to pbook readers don't really want to discriminate between when the ebook is bought.

I don't really care about the prices of pbooks. It doesn't help me.

Is that model threatened? Maybe. But maybe not. Amazon-like tactics don't seem to have been the salvation of Borders and Barnes & Noble. And publishers, while swinging from profit to loss to profit from year to year, still seem generally more profitable than Amazon. Hachette and Random House may yet survive by making money at publication date while letting the world's less affluent folks in on the game just a few years later.

The common delusion that a company which doesn't have a war chest is not profitable? I would be more inclined to think Amazon is generally less profitable if they didn't keep on growing their business so much. They seem quite profitable to me.

Wall Street may be upset that Amazon isn't handing over the dough, but that doesn't automagically translate as "Amazon isn't very profitable".

[eschwartz]

I am really quite confused about this Readers United thing myself -- I mean, I get it that Amazon is just putting out some general counter-PR, but I guess I basically agree with everyone already that it's not really in anyone's best interest but the BWMs to lower their prices. Dang. I miss so many exciting things over Shabbos.

Amazon is awesome at retail (including offering seamless access to products of all types) but they really need some better PR guys.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by leebase

Like every consumer...you have your own price point. Even Amazon's 9.99 price point is higher than you'll pay. And that's ok. So what does it matter if Hachette prices their book at $14.99 Hachette will only be hurting themselves if they price their products too high.

Personally, I think the retailer should set prices, not the producer. For that reason, I side with Amazon. That said, both sides are free to negotiate for better terms. Likewise, they're also free to reject unfavorable terms and walk away.

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I am really quite confused about this Readers United thing myself -- I mean, I get it that Amazon is just putting out some general counter-PR, but I guess I basically agree with everyone already that it's not really in anyone's best interest but the BWMs to lower their prices. Dang. I miss so many exciting things over Shabbos.

Amazon is awesome at retail (including offering seamless access to products of all types) but they really need some better PR guys.

Other then the childish response to the author's united childish publicity stunt I don't think it was that bad. I interpret it as a final warning rather then a PR stunt.

If you read what they wrote it's all directed to the consumer but they sent it to authors. (Why is that? Amazon has been very controlled about their messaging). Most of the messages in there resonate strongly with consumers and I'm sure they're all directly from complaints that Amazon has received about ebook pricing. I've seen them all on this forum.

If Amazon takes that message direct to their customer base (unfiltered by the publisher friendly media) it really paints the publishers in a corner. It's kind of like when Steve Jobs came out against DRM on music. It makes it really hard for the publishing cartel to keep trying $14.99. If they pull their books from Amazon then Amazon can claim they're only doing it to rip off consumers.

Amazon could have taken this position in 2010 when they were faced with the illegal conspiracy. Instead they kept mum and took all the shots about how they were being bullies by removing the buy button. It's pretty telling that they're preparing to get vocal about it now.