Telling time in U. K. English

[SeaBookGuy]

Originally Posted by Bookworm_Girl

For your example, we typically would read/speak them as June 6th or July 1st. We formally write dates as June 6, 2011 for instance. Day is simply a number. We sometimes write dates as June 6th or July 1st, usually when there is no reference to a year. We do also sometimes (but less frequently) verbalize or write a date as "the 6th of June" for example. There doesn't seem to be any reason why I might say or write one over the other, just whichever travels from my brain to my mouth first.

In conversation, I would expect to hear "So ... what are you doing for/on the fourth (July implied)?" I'd find an American who said "the sixth of June" rather stilted, unless it were a detective program asking a suspect's whereabouts on that date. My American genealogy software prefers entering dates as "6 Jun, 2011", which took some getting used to.

And for our U. K. friends, here is a difference between U. S. and Canadian English: primary schools in each country (generally) start with Kindergarden, after that Canadians enter 'grade one', and Americans 'first grade'. I, myself, get confused by "Junior High (school)" as I went to private (U. K. 'public', non-state) schools - one for K -8 and another for 9 - 12, but "junior high" seems to vary locally as to which years exactly it includes between primary and secondary school.

[OldGunbunny]

Originally Posted by SeaBookGuy

I, myself, get confused by "Junior High (school)" .

Ah, there's your problem. We've changed the name and didn't tell you. It's now "middle school". Middle of what is unstated, but I suspect it refers to being between elementary and high schools.

When I attended(quite some time ago), the first was referred to as "primary school".

[Shimarenda]

Junior High was normally 7th-9th grades, though it did vary in some places as you say. My mom once taught as a substitute at a school that was all 7th grade. Middle School seems to be 6th-8th grades, a much more problematic mix in my opinion.

I attended neither. My elementary school was 1st-7th and high school was 8th-12th.

[Bookworm_Girl]

My junior high was 7-8th. It has been since renamed as a middle school and is now 6th-8th.

[DMB]

One difference between England and America is that if a pupil does the full course in England (normally to A-level) s/he will finish in 13th grade. My younger children went to an international school in Switzerland and did the International Baccalaureate instead of A-levels. They still finished at the end of 13th grade. A good IB score will normally allow a student to take a shorter degree course at an American university. English bachelor degree courses normally take only three years.

[pdurrant]

In the UK, in the state schools, there are Primary (4-11) and Secondary (11-18). In some cases, Primary might be split into Infant (4-7) and Junior (7-11).

In my part of the country, they switched to a system of First (4-8), Middle (8-12) and Secondary (12-18). I got caught in the change, and spent an extra year in my Junior/Middle school, and they weren't really set up to teach 11-12 year olds, since that was the first year of the change.

30 years later, they switched back. My youngest just got caught in the change, and moved up to Secondary school as part of an intake of two year groups at once, and they weren't really set up to handle so many new students at once.

Sigh....

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by DMB

One difference between England and America is that if a pupil does the full course in England (normally to A-level) s/he will finish in 13th grade. My younger children went to an international school in Switzerland and did the International Baccalaureate instead of A-levels. They still finished at the end of 13th grade. A good IB score will normally allow a student to take a shorter degree course at an American university. English bachelor degree courses normally take only three years.

There are other significant educational differences. In the UK, children specialise in typically three subjects from the age of 16, for a 2 year A-level course, and then, as mentioned, may go on to university for a 3-year bachelor's degree. This means that subjects are studied in much more depth at an earlier age. For example, in mathematics, you learn such topics as calculus and trigonometry to quite an advanced level for A-level maths, whereas my understanding is that these are normally considered to be "college" subjects in the US. In terms of level of knowledge of the subject being studied, a British bachelor's degree is roughly the equivalent to a US master's degree.

[Bookworm_Girl]

Not exactly so. It's more that our curriculums are less standardized. A lot depends on where you live because requirements are set more locally than nationally. Many high schools offer honors classes, which separate students of higher ability in that area for advanced studies in the same subject as a non-honors class. Many high schools participate in Advanced Placement programs which is sort of like A-levels. You take specialized courses in that area and then take a national standardized AP test and depending on your test score can get university credit. For example I got credit in university for one year each of history, calculus, English and biology based on my AP test scores. To take the AP math test, I took advanced classes in geometry, trig, algebra & 2 years of calculus in high school. Some schools also participate in International Baccalaureate exams which can also earn you university credits. Also sometimes local universities will pair with local high schools for credits. For example my high school Spanish courses earned me local university credits. Our high school curriculums are meant to be broad and well-rounded covering a wide variety of subjects, but there is the opportunity to specialize too for some students.

[SeaBookGuy]

deleted - dup post

[issybird]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There are other significant educational differences. In the UK, children specialise in typically three subjects from the age of 16, for a 2 year A-level course, and then, as mentioned, may go on to university for a 3-year bachelor's degree. This means that subjects are studied in much more depth at an earlier age. For example, in mathematics, you learn such topics as calculus and trigonometry to quite an advanced level for A-level maths, whereas my understanding is that these are normally considered to be "college" subjects in the US. In terms of level of knowledge of the subject being studied, a British bachelor's degree is roughly the equivalent to a US master's degree.

Not so fast! The difference is one of philosphy, whether a bachelor's degree is for breadth or depth and arguments can be made for both. I think the real issue in both countries is the quality of the degree-granting institution. Is one a graduate of Cambridge or the local technical (like Hyacinth's Sheridan)? A graduate of Yale or Podunk?

Seriously, are you suggesting that a bachelor's degree from the local redbrick is the equivalent of a master's from Harvard?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by issybird

Not so fast! The difference is one of philosphy, whether a bachelor's degree is for breadth or depth and arguments can be made for both.

I agree. I didn't say that it was better - just different. As you rightly say, our two countries have a different educational philosophy in that respect. Not everyone likes A-levels for that very reasons, and some schools and colleges now teach the International Baccalaureate for that very reason - that it teaches a much broader range of disciplines.

Seriously, are you suggesting that a bachelor's degree from the local redbrick is the equivalent of a master's from Harvard?

I very much doubt it. But in technical subjects (my degree is in physics) it's certainly true that a bachelor's degree from an American university doesn't teach you nearly as much about that core subject as a British university does. Of course, the flip side is that the American university teaches you other subjects too. Perhaps that's better - I don't know.

[vans]

I used to study Military History part time. I was lucky enough to be taught by one of the then leading military historians in Britain.

He told me that every year (he was in his fourth year) he taught for one term at the Virginia Military Institute. Before he started teaching he was told to he was teaching in a college. However, he quickly understood that he had to teach at year 11 standard (leading up to A level).

I don't know if this adds to the discussion and I am certainly not equipped to compare teaching philosophies between differing countries, but it is offered in the hope that it helps.

[DMB]

There's a polite pretence that all universities are equal, but that's all it is. As regards UK universities one has only to look at their differing entrance requirements. I also know from my own observations that students at top UK universities have to work harder than those at the bottom ones -- they are very competitive.

The English first degrees are on average more specialised than US ones. Typically, one may study only a single subject. For my degree, I did maths and nothing else.

I'm not unhappy about specialisation at degree level, but I am unhappy about it for the 16--18 age group. I specifically sought out schools for my children that taught IB.

[mbovenka]

Originally Posted by Bikeridr

Another thing in Norway and also (maybe not common but occuring) in German is that 5:35 is "five-past-half-six" (NO="Fem-over-halv-seks" DE="Fünf-nach-halb-sechs").

Dutch has that too: "vijf over half zes" = "five past half six"

And it's the common way of telling time. The rest of those are:

vijf over = five minutes past the whole hour (6:05)
tien over = ten minutes past the whole hour (6:10)
kwart over = 15 minutes past the hour (6:15 would be "kwart over zes", "quarter past six")
tien voor half = 20 minutes past the hour (6:20 would be "10 voor half zeven", "ten-to-half-seven")

This goes on util -.45, which would be "kwart voor", "quarter to" in steps of five minutes.

[Bikeridr]

Originally Posted by mbovenka

Dutch has that too: "vijf over half zes" = "five past half six"

And it's the common way of telling time. The rest of those are:

vijf over = five minutes past the whole hour (6:05)
tien over = ten minutes past the whole hour (6:10)
kwart over = 15 minutes past the hour (6:15 would be "kwart over zes", "quarter past six")
tien voor half = 20 minutes past the hour (6:20 would be "10 voor half zeven", "ten-to-half-seven")

This goes on util -.45, which would be "kwart voor", "quarter to" in steps of five minutes.

Yep,
Exactly the same in Norwegian. I just didn't elaborate.

BTW, is Norwegian "commonly understood" if you were to read it?
I do, to a certain extent, understand the essence of a text in Dutch, though I don't understand spoken Dutch. (It may also be since I speak some German though).