Piracy vs Bookstores

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Halk

Twenty one pages....

I started this thread in order to have a discussion. It'd have been pointless unless I was prepared to listen, and I think I have learned from it.

Good for you!

Originally Posted by Halk

I've already said I'm going to change my behaviour - I'll now browse through what I can pay for legally, rather than browse through all books and then have to choose between not getting the book, or pirating it.

This seems like a sensible idea. That will reduce your temptation to "pirate" books. It'll also lead to your spending more $$ with authors and publishers who make eBooks available -- a good thing!

Originally Posted by Halk

I've also decided not to use DRM removal tools. Not because it's illegal, but because it's not justifiable for me to tell myself it's ok for me to use them, but not ok for other people to use them because other people might spread the books around.

Hmmmm... This seems unfortunate. As far as I can tell (based on statements of lawyers who are experts in the field of IP, although I am neither an expert on IP nor a lawyer) it is in fact legal--that is "fair use"--for you to format shift a legally-purchased work whether it has DRM or not. Removing the DRM isn't illegal. Even when your purpose is to format-shift.

Distributing the de-DRMd work would be illegal. Downloading and removing the DRM from a work that you did not purchase legally may be illegal (it certainly seems immoral to me; your mileage may vary).

All the rest of your stated new policy seems darned sensible to me.

Xenophon

[Halk]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Hmmmm... This seems unfortunate. As far as I can tell (based on statements of lawyers who are experts in the field of IP, although I am neither an expert on IP nor a lawyer) it is in fact legal--that is "fair use"--for you to format shift a legally-purchased work whether it has DRM or not. Removing the DRM isn't illegal. Even when your purpose is to format-shift.

Distributing the de-DRMd work would be illegal. Downloading and removing the DRM from a work that you did not purchase legally may be illegal (it certainly seems immoral to me; your mileage may vary).

All the rest of your stated new policy seems darned sensible to me.

Xenophon

Well, my thinking was along these lines.

Instead of DRM removing tools, think of it as an assault rifle.

I need an assault rifle in my house to shoot any wild animals that bother me, or for self defence. I know I'll only use it for that and it won't be a risk.

However no other bugger can have an assault rifle, because if they do they'll go around shooting each other when they get pissed off.

As well as that...

I've also decided to view DRM encoded books as an entirely different thing than a non-DRM encoded book.

I.e. if I have one without DRM then it's mine forever, no matter what format I want it on I can have it on that, no matter what device. 40 years down the line I'll still have it (maybe!) and I can use it on my holographic cyber reader while a robotic Liz Hurley pilots my spaceship to Alpha Centauri. (Might as well be optimistic about the future!)

A DRM encoded book is, more or less, a one trick pony. It's fine on my Cybook, and perhaps on my next device. But eventually I'll no longer be able to give a new device ID to the retailer, and at that point I'll be unable to use it. Either that or I'll move to a device that doesn't support the format.

And the third reason...

If the publisher DRM encodes a book, then they are selling it as a DRM encoded book, knowing the pitfalls of doing so, and I'm buying it knowing the pitfalls of it. It's sort of like (but not exactly like) renting a DVD and making a copy. When I buy a DRM'ed book I'm renting for as long as it takes for it to become obsolete.

So while I'd happily pay 6 dollars for a DRM'ed book, I'd rather pay 8 for a DRM free book. And I hope publishers take note and adjust their marketing to suit.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Halk

Well, my thinking was along these lines.

Instead of DRM removing tools, think of it as an assault rifle.

I need an assault rifle in my house to shoot any wild animals that bother me, or for self defence. I know I'll only use it for that and it won't be a risk.

However no other bugger can have an assault rifle, because if they do they'll go around shooting each other when they get pissed off.

As well as that...

I've also decided to view DRM encoded books as an entirely different thing than a non-DRM encoded book.

I.e. if I have one without DRM then it's mine forever, no matter what format I want it on I can have it on that, no matter what device. 40 years down the line I'll still have it (maybe!) and I can use it on my holographic cyber reader while a robotic Liz Hurley pilots my spaceship to Alpha Centauri. (Might as well be optimistic about the future!)

A DRM encoded book is, more or less, a one trick pony. It's fine on my Cybook, and perhaps on my next device. But eventually I'll no longer be able to give a new device ID to the retailer, and at that point I'll be unable to use it. Either that or I'll move to a device that doesn't support the format.

And the third reason...

If the publisher DRM encodes a book, then they are selling it as a DRM encoded book, knowing the pitfalls of doing so, and I'm buying it knowing the pitfalls of it. It's sort of like (but not exactly like) renting a DVD and making a copy. When I buy a DRM'ed book I'm renting for as long as it takes for it to become obsolete.

So while I'd happily pay 6 dollars for a DRM'ed book, I'd rather pay 8 for a DRM free book. And I hope publishers take note and adjust their marketing to suit.

you might be taking things a bit far with that analogy. i really can't see any reason i should not convert a LIT file which i have bought and paid for to an IMP file so i can read it on my eb1150 (this is why i bought it after all), as long as it's for my own personal use. this seems pretty "fair" to me.

an assault rifle however seems not only reeeeeally hard to justify (what "wild animals" *exactly* are you talking about, that you would need a hypothetical assault rife to defend yourself ??? sabre tooth tigers ??? scotland must have a lot more wildlife than i ever heard about !) but also the kind of thing i wouldn't want around even if i "knew" that i would only use it responsibly. what about an accident ? or if one day i get REALLY REALLY MAD ? or temporary insanity ?? whereas i could turn into a complete raving lunatic like Mr. Hyde, and nobody will end up dead because i had ConvertLIT installed.

i also disagree with your analysis of drm vs. non-drm books : if i buy a book, i want to keep it and be able to read it *forever*, unless it turns out to be a really stupid book and i decide to delete it (note i specify this is MY conscious decision). i don't want "disposable" books, and i *really* don't want the publishers to think about them like this. if i pay for a book, i pay to BUY that book, not rent it. it's my book, to read as many times as i want, and ideally, on whatever type of device i choose / have. just like any paper book i paid for. renting a book is for a library system, which is completely different, and should DEFINITELY not be the same price (i won't pay 6$ to "rent" a book).

i wanted to say that explicitly, just in case any publishers came along to this thread and got any funny ideas...

i *do* agree that it's good to vote with your pocketbook, and buy non-drm books whenever possible. i only wish more interesting books were available in that format. for the moment, i'm finding it rather hard to vote (except maybe with a "white ballot" by not buying at all...) since the books i am willing to pay money for seem only to be published with drm. most of the books available without drm that i want to read, are classics, which i can get from gutenberg for free.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

an assault rifle however seems not only reeeeeally hard to justify (what "wild animals" *exactly* are you talking about, that you would need a hypothetical assault rife to defend yourself ??? sabre tooth tigers ??? scotland must have a lot more wildlife than i ever heard about !)

You've obviously never seen an enraged Haggis during the mating season. Truly terrifying! People in the more remote parts of Scotland have to reinforce their doors and put steel shutters over the windows to keep them out. We're lucky, in the rest of the UK, not to have to suffer their rampages. An assault rifle would be the least I'd want for Haggis protection!

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You've obviously never seen an enraged Haggis during the mating season. Truly terrifying! People in the more remote parts of Scotland have to reinforce their doors and put steel shutters over the windows to keep them out. We're lucky, in the rest of the UK, not to have to suffer their rampages. An assault rifle would be the least I'd want for Haggis protection!

hag·gis /ˈhægɪs/
–noun Chiefly Scot.
a traditional pudding made of the heart, liver, etc., of a sheep or calf, minced with suet and oatmeal, seasoned, and boiled in the stomach of the animal.

you're right, that sounds terrifying to me too !! but i don't know if an assault rifle will do much good...

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Halk

Well, my thinking was along these lines.

Instead of DRM removing tools, think of it as an assault rifle.

I need an assault rifle in my house to shoot any wild animals that bother me, or for self defence. I know I'll only use it for that and it won't be a risk.

However no other bugger can have an assault rifle, because if they do they'll go around shooting each other when they get pissed off.

SNIP
So while I'd happily pay 6 dollars for a DRM'ed book, I'd rather pay 8 for a DRM free book. And I hope publishers take note and adjust their marketing to suit.

I missed the fact that you are in Scotland. In the US, both your DRM point and your "assault rifle" analogy fall apart, because both would be perfectly legal under US law. Your mileage (or in this case legal system) may vary.

I certainly agree with your stance on DRM-crippled books. They're worth FAR less to me than DRM-free books. My only exception is for books from which I can trivially remove the DRM. These are worth less than DRM-free, because I have extra work to do. But they're worth more than fully crippled books.
Xenophon

P.S. Of course, in Texas you can still shoot trespassers after dark, and cattle rustlers caught in the act at any time whatsoever. So legal systems vary quite a lot!

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You've obviously never seen an enraged Haggis during the mating season. Truly terrifying! People in the more remote parts of Scotland have to reinforce their doors and put steel shutters over the windows to keep them out. We're lucky, in the rest of the UK, not to have to suffer their rampages. An assault rifle would be the least I'd want for Haggis protection!

Harry, Harry... Enraged haggis are easy to cope with. Any time you are concerned about enraged Haggis, simply down another shot of single-malt, neat. Soon you'll have no problem with those enraged Haggis. Unless, of course, one of them tries to take away your single-malt.

Xenophon