Texas Board of Education at it again Banning textbooks

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

"Somebody's gotta stand up to experts"
--Don McLeroy

Nothing sums up the problem with the Texas State Board of Education more than a look at the statements made by board member, dentist, and radical religious fundamentalist Don McLeroy. Thanks for that, ardeegee. This is what we're talking about, folks. His agenda isn't fairness, it's evangelism.

[nguirado]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

has it not occurred to you that people NOT of those classes had the means and help to be cared for at home?

seriously, as a whole hospitals by and large are a fairly modern invention. prior to the last century they were primarily facilities to go and die presumably slightly more comfortably than completely alone with no care at all

What do soldiers, slaves, and gladiators have in common? They're all property, useful to their masters in some way. There wasn't widespread charity or places of care for the common person.

However, perhaps I was too absolute. How's this: Charity and care for those not useful increased many fold with Christianity. Some of the concepts, like a duty to care for people (on account of them being created in the image of God) even without compensation, were so rare in the pagan world that it may be said that Christians "invented" it.

[nguirado]

Originally Posted by Graham

We're not denying that. We were expanding on nguirado's contention that they were developed by the Christian religion in particular.



I do think though that as civilisations grew in power they would have developed these things regardless of religion. Religion, though, has historically been one of our main tools for gathering wealth and mobilising the workforce.

Graham

I will contend that it was ideals of the three Abrahamic religions that spawned the idea of selfless charity. Specifically, the view that all people, from the leper to the king, are equal in some fundamental way. This is one of the ideas that hasn't gone away with secularization.

Knowledge and science is more complex so I won't get into it now. It would certainly be a long slog.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by nguirado

What do soldiers, slaves, and gladiators have in common? They're all property, useful to their masters in some way. There wasn't widespread charity or places of care for the common person.

However, perhaps I was too absolute. How's this: Charity and care for those not useful increased many fold with Christianity. Some of the concepts, like a duty to care for people (on account of them being created in the image of God) even without compensation, were so rare in the pagan world that it may be said that Christians "invented" it.

Sorry, nguirado, if you look at some of the links we've attached above, you'll find that this simply isn't true. Here's the "Early examples" link again from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital#Early_examples

You pulled out the example of the valetudinaria, but ignored the sections on the institutions in India, Greece, Sri Lanka and Persia.

Note also the quote from this wiki entry (C. Elgood, A Medical History of Persia, (Cambridge Univ. Press), p. 173):

One expert has argued that "to a very large extent, the credit for the whole hospital system must be given to Persia

Graham

[Graham]

Originally Posted by nguirado

I will contend that it was ideals of the three Abrahamic religions that spawned the idea of selfless charity. Specifically, the view that all people, from the leper to the king, are equal in some fundamental way.

This view also exists in Buddhism, and we've seen that the earliest institutions were Buddhist and pre-dated those of the Abrahamic faiths.

Remember, my contention isn't that the Abrahamic faiths (and I'm glad to see you've widened it from just Christianity now) didn't influence and promote the growth of medical institutions - of course they did - but that the concepts had been around a long time. So I disagree that they 'spawned the idea of selfless charity'.

Graham

[SameOldStory]

First let me declare myself. I am an uncommitted, non-practicing, occasional agnostic. But I do respect most religions. Except that one about the Great Turtle. Sorry, guys.

Religion has provided both some of the high points, and some of the very worst points in history. Currently, with people strapping bombs to their bodies to kill men, women, and children of their own religion, but differing sects, is indeed at one of the low points.

Teach religion as history. But don't elevate one over the other. Do/did "western textbooks describe the crusades as good? Not mine in the late 50s and early 60s. Perhaps someone educated in a Muslim country can say if their textbooks described the Muslim expansion of that era as beneficial?

It's pretty clear that no one here is going to see the others side. Why keep beating a dead horse?

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by nguirado

What do soldiers, slaves, and gladiators have in common? They're all property, useful to their masters in some way. There wasn't widespread charity or places of care for the common person.

However, perhaps I was too absolute. How's this: Charity and care for those not useful increased many fold with Christianity. Some of the concepts, like a duty to care for people (on account of them being created in the image of God) even without compensation, were so rare in the pagan world that it may be said that Christians "invented" it.

thos classes of people existed BEFORE christianity and were taken care of. the mere symbol for "Doctor" comes from Greek mythology.

Originally Posted by nguirado

I will contend that it was ideals of the three Abrahamic religions that spawned the idea of selfless charity. Specifically, the view that all people, from the leper to the king, are equal in some fundamental way. This is one of the ideas that hasn't gone away with secularization.

Knowledge and science is more complex so I won't get into it now. It would certainly be a long slog.

many MANY other religions pre chritianity were very charitably oriented. once again, the Greeks and Romans, the Celts, the Egyptians, the First Nations

you're not going to win this one

[ardeegee]

More commentary on the recent stinky poll:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,3225238.story

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...eligion_go.php

[Angst]

Originally Posted by nguirado

How's this: Charity and care for those not useful increased many fold with Christianity. Some of the concepts, like a duty to care for people (on account of them being created in the image of God) even without compensation, were so rare in the pagan world that it may be said that Christians "invented" it.

"In the Roman Empire, social welfare to help the poor was enlarged by the Caesar Trajan"

"The concepts of welfare and pension were put into practice in the early Islamic law"

"The medieval Roman Catholic Church operated a far- reaching and comprehensive welfare system for the poor."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare#History

[nguirado]

That's fine. I meant to contrast the dominant view of the poor in the Christian era in the West to that of the pagan era. I shouldn't have said "invented."

I don't know too much about Trajan so I'll defer to you guys on that.

The dominant philosophies, stoicism, for example, promoted "goodness," but not compassion or feeling. Many of the public charities were to aggrandize the wealthy and weren't of the selfless type. I don't know that there were bands of men and women in pagan Europe dedicated to helping the wretched.

This is a huge topic that takes a lot of time. We can call a truce on this.

[Joe Minton]

Compassion is an emotion. It is individual and does not require teaching to feel nor to act upon that feeling. In my sixth year I witnessed an act of cruelty upon a beautiful Oriole: the bird, after having its feet shot off and falling to the ground, screamed as loudly and energetically as is could -- I felt that creature's pain and despair. (Don't even attempt to tell me that other creatures do not feel pain and despair!) --- I became, at that moment, a Humanist.

No preacher, no 'revealed' text or other superstition, can replace, enhance or build upon what I learned from that beautiful and condemned creature. My life has been guided, to some significant extent, by that bird.

Nothing I have read, not the Bible, not the Torah, not the Qur'an, not the writings of Thomas Aquinas, Albert Sweitzer or the many other religious (mostly Christian) authors I have bothered with have been more eloquent than that ancient and fellow animal.

When misguided, ill informed, ignorant or just plain stupid people choose to argue over the occupants of the head of a pin -- I am reminded of the Oriole and its plea.

Perhaps Jesus's dying cry was like the Oriole's -- I don't know but I like to think so. I completely believe that we should all be sympathetic to the essential goodness of being alive and sharing this wonderful place in the hostile-to-life universe, no matter how essentially cruel and brutal life is.

As to when we became compassionate: pre-historic graves have contained flowers along with the carefully-arranged remains of people. Anyone who has children knows that 'revealed truth' is not necessary to teach them to feel the joy or plight of others. Maimonides exists today because we learned to write; his teachings, in the long period before writing were, I am sure, still taught. We did not require Jesus, Mohammad or Jerry Falwell to 'set us straight.'

Go read some books. Go witness the pain of others. Act upon both.

[Joebill]

Originally Posted by nguirado

I will contend that it was ideals of the three Abrahamic religions that spawned the idea of selfless charity. Specifically, the view that all people, from the leper to the king, are equal in some fundamental way. This is one of the ideas that hasn't gone away with secularization.

Knowledge and science is more complex so I won't get into it now. It would certainly be a long slog.

Well, I grew up in a town that had a Baptist Church, a Church of the Nazareene (probably misspelled), and one other. The closest Catholic Church was in another town. There were no other religions there. They could apply for a building permit, but it never happened. This was in the early 1950s.

So I grew up in an area where basically one religion, Southern Baptists, controlled most of the county, with able assistance of the local Klan chapter.

To learn anything factual about other religions, I had to move out of there.

So if you lived in a similar situation, I wouldn't be surprised at what you posted.

As for science and creation. I beleive in both, without feeling 'torn' as one is science, the other is faith. For me, neither infringes on the other.

Uhm, but I don't believe in a flat Earth, nor any claim that the Earth is the Center of the Universe.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Joe Minton

Compassion is an emotion. It is individual and does not require teaching to feel nor to act upon that feeling. In my sixth year I witnessed an act of cruelty upon a beautiful Oriole: the bird, after having its feet shot off and falling to the ground, screamed as loudly and energetically as is could -- I felt that creature's pain and despair. (Don't even attempt to tell me that other creatures do not feel pain and despair!) --- I became, at that moment, a Humanist.

No preacher, no 'revealed' text or other superstition, can replace, enhance or build upon what I learned from that beautiful and condemned creature. My life has been guided, to some significant extent, by that bird.

Nothing I have read, not the Bible, not the Torah, not the Qur'an, not the writings of Thomas Aquinas, Albert Sweitzer or the many other religious (mostly Christian) authors I have bothered with have been more eloquent than that ancient and fellow animal.

When misguided, ill informed, ignorant or just plain stupid people choose to argue over the occupants of the head of a pin -- I am reminded of the Oriole and its plea.

Perhaps Jesus's dying cry was like the Oriole's -- I don't know but I like to think so. I completely believe that we should all be sympathetic to the essential goodness of being alive and sharing this wonderful place in the hostile-to-life universe, no matter how essentially cruel and brutal life is.

As to when we became compassionate: pre-historic graves have contained flowers along with the carefully-arranged remains of people. Anyone who has children knows that 'revealed truth' is not necessary to teach them to feel the joy or plight of others. Maimonides exists today because we learned to write; his teachings, in the long period before writing were, I am sure, still taught. We did not require Jesus, Mohammad or Jerry Falwell to 'set us straight.'

Go read some books. Go witness the pain of others. Act upon both.

Well said. Thank you.

[MJK2111]

Originally Posted by terrazoids

Yeah but to favor something that the majority of people don't believe is not good. The constitution also protects the culture of the nation. So if theres too much Islam coming out of these books.... got to censor it.

Sorry, but in the USA, we don't "got to censor it." The fact that we allow and encourage contrary ideas is what makes this country great.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by nguirado

That's fine. I meant to contrast the dominant view of the poor in the Christian era in the West to that of the pagan era. I shouldn't have said "invented."

I don't know too much about Trajan so I'll defer to you guys on that.

The dominant philosophies, stoicism, for example, promoted "goodness," but not compassion or feeling. Many of the public charities were to aggrandize the wealthy and weren't of the selfless type. I don't know that there were bands of men and women in pagan Europe dedicated to helping the wretched.

This is a huge topic that takes a lot of time. We can call a truce on this.

it is very difficult to call a truce on an issue that you refuse to budge on. unless of course, you are willing to admit that caring and charity did not begin with christianity and is not unique to the belief

Originally Posted by MJK2111

Sorry, but in the USA, we don't "got to censor it." The fact that we allow and encourage contrary ideas is what makes this country great.

don't bother, he's banned