Seriously thoughtful Unbelievable! (not allowed to show the flag)

[Spoon Man]

Well, this has definitely gotten interesting. I applaud the verbal swordplay so far folks. However, as this is simply a friendly sparing match here, I suggest we put caps on the sharp ends.

Moejoe, my those values which I spoke of are the ones that I've derived from the reading that volatile piece of paper called the Constitution of the United States. There is a lot of crap in history books, there is a lot of heresay out there, and a lot of just plain false information. I'm talking form reading the constitution.

Now, Astra's comment I believe had to do with the fact that every time he tried to put out an idea he was personally attacked (something that a few of us have been trying to avoid). I've been trying to argue ideas, not people here.

America's actions in the past 20yrs (I'm not ignoring anything prior to this, but directly replying to the immediate history of current conflicts) worldwide have been deplorable, the government has lied, cheated, and stolen. We aren't denying this. We've been trying to change things internally to make them more open and make the government more accountable to the people who elect the people that best represent us.

I personally would love to see the world which you are talking about, but I don't believe it can happen. It is impossible to sit everyone down to have a discussion about what we want in the world. Someone will always be under-represented or left out. You can't rely in "responsible leaders" to make everything right for the world, because these people have not and never will exist.
We have countries so that people of like mind can be together, let the other people be together, and generally work towards their own interests. Its when people try to have a discussion like this that someone makes a personal attack, someone gets offended, and then conflict breaks out, wars start.

Now, I will say that there has not been a soldier that doesn't come home from war, having shot people, that have not second guessed every action they took. There is serious mental and emotional trauma associated with this (Pshrynk can better explain that), and its not something to be taken lightly. Only in movies have I seen "The heartless, mindless soldier". Happy_Terd could definitely talk about this, but I think hes staying out of this for the general good of the thread because too many people will argue the person and not the idea.

Folks, you can't change a person by offending them, but you can change them by making them see the errors in thought processes and potential plans. When you make a personal attack, it puts people in defensive mode, and turns off part of their ability to think logically about your ideas.

Sparrow, I think you are right. But this comes with understanding of others and the ability to accept different people while disagreeing with beliefs. You and I think alike a bit, I believe.

Astra, I am curious as to what Monster it is you speak of. I think you could be on to an interesting topic.

[GlennD]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

EDIT: Saying all that, I would not want to be in America when Capitalism fails, unless you're in Oregon (you'll be safe there).

I have to ask, since I work in Oregon and live on the Washington/Oregon border - what do you see that is different in Oregon as opposed to the rest of the United States?

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by GlennD

I have to ask, since I work in Oregon and live on the Washington/Oregon border - what do you see that is different in Oregon as opposed to the rest of the United States?

In Oregon you have one of the largest and most active anarchist communities anywhere in the world (you also have some Nazi's and libertarians too, but they're neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things). If you need help and are willing to be part of a community you'll get help there when all this explode (look for the red and black flags). Greece will be first, it's happening now, then when all the rest of the cut-throat, don't give a shit about people corporations fail, so the rest of Europe will follow Greece. It's a couple of years away, but we're at the very end of capitalism now (what might be defined as neo-liberal Capitalism). What's been sold to us over the last hundred years is nothing more than slavery - you are free to choose which master controls you. Human beings haven't always lived this way and they won't always live this way without resistance, without change. And change is coming....soon.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Spoon Man

Well, this has definitely gotten interesting. I applaud the verbal swordplay so far folks. However, as this is simply a friendly sparing match here, I suggest we put caps on the sharp ends.

Moejoe, my those values which I spoke of are the ones that I've derived from the reading that volatile piece of paper called the Constitution of the United States. There is a lot of crap in history books, there is a lot of heresay out there, and a lot of just plain false information. I'm talking form reading the constitution.

Now, Astra's comment I believe had to do with the fact that every time he tried to put out an idea he was personally attacked (something that a few of us have been trying to avoid). I've been trying to argue ideas, not people here.

America's actions in the past 20yrs (I'm not ignoring anything prior to this, but directly replying to the immediate history of current conflicts) worldwide have been deplorable, the government has lied, cheated, and stolen. We aren't denying this. We've been trying to change things internally to make them more open and make the government more accountable to the people who elect the people that best represent us.

I personally would love to see the world which you are talking about, but I don't believe it can happen. It is impossible to sit everyone down to have a discussion about what we want in the world. Someone will always be under-represented or left out. You can't rely in "responsible leaders" to make everything right for the world, because these people have not and never will exist.
We have countries so that people of like mind can be together, let the other people be together, and generally work towards their own interests. Its when people try to have a discussion like this that someone makes a personal attack, someone gets offended, and then conflict breaks out, wars start.

Now, I will say that there has not been a soldier that doesn't come home from war, having shot people, that have not second guessed every action they took. There is serious mental and emotional trauma associated with this (Pshrynk can better explain that), and its not something to be taken lightly. Only in movies have I seen "The heartless, mindless soldier". Happy_Terd could definitely talk about this, but I think hes staying out of this for the general good of the thread because too many people will argue the person and not the idea.

Folks, you can't change a person by offending them, but you can change them by making them see the errors in thought processes and potential plans. When you make a personal attack, it puts people in defensive mode, and turns off part of their ability to think logically about your ideas.

Sparrow, I think you are right. But this comes with understanding of others and the ability to accept different people while disagreeing with beliefs. You and I think alike a bit, I believe.

Astra, I am curious as to what Monster it is you speak of. I think you could be on to an interesting topic.

America's history is that of all Empires - conquest, violence, torture and brutality. Your constitution has never actually been followed, in spirit or in law during the lifespan of your country and it never will be as long as money and property are valued above life and liberty. I'm not just talking the last 20 years either which have America ranked as one of the highest in human rights abuses, I'm talking about Vietnam, the Philippines, Korea, Cuba, El Salvador, Grenada, Laos, Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chile, Argentina, Ireland, Israel (especially American involvement and money that funds the terrorism of the Israeli state) the list of countries and the poor people within those countries that America has slaughtered or helped slaughter is astounding (Britain too, most of ours was pre 1900, still no excuse).

Your endless support as a country for dictators and the setting up of puppet regimes is sickening. The shameless acts of the CIA in South American countries and across Europe boggles the mind. The torture camps, the disinformation, the lies, always the lies. Your constitution is a piece of paper designed by slave traders who wanted more freedom (shamelessly cribbed from George Carlin).

As long as Guantanemo exists, as long as Leonard Peltier remains in prison, as long as corporations get away with murder because they have money, as long as you continually execute the mentally handicapped, your constitution isn't even worthy as toilet paper. You do realise that most of the civilised world stopped executing criminals sixty years ago, don't you? Your country now is little more than a crumbling Empire, a laughing stock across the world, the enemy of most thinking people. You live in a slave nation where one of your biggest industries is imprisonment and law enforcement (look at all Empires and see the same). Your culture is money orientated, profit based and violent, so bloody violent that most people in the world look at you and wag their heads in disbelief. That constitution you say you try to uphold, means nothing. The freedoms it guarantees don't exist, the laws it means to uphold have been overturned, the life and liberty you are supposed to have as a people is reserved only for those who can afford such and those who can't afford such are the most vocal in supporting their own oppressors.

Maybe you don't understand this, but I know there are many Americans who do, every single time that flag flies it does not represent the best of what you can be or have been, no matter how hard you wish it could. The wars you've started, the freedoms you've taken in the name of your own freedom, the children and women who have died to add zeroes to a war profiteers bank balance. That's your real constitution. Your true legacy in the world.

Rome is burning, your flag is the seal of Empire. All Empire's fall. Yours is falling now and you just can't see it.

[astra]

Originally Posted by Spoon Man

Astra, I am curious as to what Monster it is you speak of. I think you could be on to an interesting topic.

If I say it here, it would divert this topic to a different direction. I might PM you, or maybe you know the answer but wanted to hear it here and see how people react.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by astra

If I say it here, it would divert this topic to a different direction. I might PM you, or maybe you know the answer but wanted to hear it here and see how people react.

I'll take an educated guess, using your barely-concealed hatred for ethnic groups in earlier posts, and say that the MONSTER you're talking about is Islam or some Daily Mail variation of Islam.

Right?

[recluse]

And when it happens, they won't put those who resist up against a wall and open fire.
They'll get a hug and a bag lunch.

It's the hate that scares me. And any rational human being.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by recluse

And when it happens, they won't put those who resist up against a wall and open fire.
They'll get a hug and a bag lunch.

It's the hate that scares me. And any rational human being.

You really should start quoting what or who you are replying to, it's very frustrating coming along seeing these nonsensical posts in the middle of nothing. Also, pot, kettle, black. What you posted in that other thread was some of the most evil, hateful bile-filled and sickening statements I've ever had the discomfort to come across. If this were my community I'd have banned you outright there and then. If hate scares you so much, then you're not doing a very good job of controlling that hatred within yourself.

[kindlekitten]

moejoe... ever live in Oregon? I did. worked for the phone company there. saw the ins and outs of all those groups as well as their compounds. guess what?

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

moejoe... ever live in Oregon? I did. worked for the phone company there. saw the ins and outs of all those groups as well as their compounds. guess what?

Another highly constructive argument I see. I mean, seriously, you're a jingoist and a flag-waver, why would I take you seriously even for a minute. You're exactly the kind of person that gives your country a bad name around the world. The stereotype of the loud, brash, stomping over everything, gun-totin', freedom lovin' American. Woo-ha! (That illiterate idiot you voted into office twice would be proud)

I'll take the anarchists, who whether you deem them irrelevant or not, are at least working towards better communities and having actual communities, any day over that ageing neo-con me-first crap you and the rest peddle in this thread. At least they're working towards something instead of just themselves.

Shout freedom loudly while loading a gun and never understand the irony.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Another highly constructive argument I see. I mean, seriously, you're a jingoist and a flag-waver, why would I take you seriously even for a minute. You're exactly the kind of person that gives your country a bad name around the world. The stereotype of the loud, brash, stomping over everything, gun-totin', freedom lovin' American. Woo-ha! (That illiterate idiot you voted into office twice would be proud)

I'll take the anarchists, who whether you deem them irrelevant or not, are at least working towards better communities and having actual communities, any day over that ageing neo-con me-first crap you and the rest peddle in this thread. At least they're working towards something instead of just themselves.

Shout freedom loudly while loading a gun and never understand the irony.

in fact I am a student of both history and anthropology and understand full well the mistakes of ignoring the accidents of my predecessors. do not assume to know my politics or voting record.

instead of engaging the conversation of the "anarchists" in Oregon, you simply choose to attack me. like I said before, I've lived there. I know the "anarchists". fully half of them are communes left over from the 60s. the efficient ones have 3 people out of 10 actually doing the work to make the organizations viable. then there are the "tribal" orgs. where people's tribal names are "Brother Hawk Wing" and "Sister Moon Shadow". they are about as well prepared to live through any massive change in society as a faery fart. these are groups that are so caught up in the fantasy of alternate realities they have lost touch with what is going on in today's world. the only thing some of them might have going for them is that a few are agriculturally viable. that's effective in a true anarchist environment just until the stronger better organized group moves in and takes over. oh yeah, the ones with the guns

don't presume to understand my politics, who I voted for, what my stance on issues may be. you simply expose your own ignorance

[obs20]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

"Sister Moon Shadow"

Wasn't that a Cat Stevens ditty, before he changed his name to Yusuf Islam?

[Spoon Man]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

America's history is that of all Empires - conquest, violence, torture and brutality. Your constitution has never actually been followed, in spirit or in law during the lifespan of your country and it never will be as long as money and property are valued above life and liberty. I'm not just talking the last 20 years either which have America ranked as one of the highest in human rights abuses, I'm talking about Vietnam, the Philippines, Korea, Cuba, El Salvador, Grenada, Laos, Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chile, Argentina, Ireland, Israel (especially American involvement and money that funds the terrorism of the Israeli state) the list of countries and the poor people within those countries that America has slaughtered or helped slaughter is astounding (Britain too, most of ours was pre 1900, still no excuse).

Your endless support as a country for dictators and the setting up of puppet regimes is sickening. The shameless acts of the CIA in South American countries and across Europe boggles the mind. The torture camps, the disinformation, the lies, always the lies. Your constitution is a piece of paper designed by slave traders who wanted more freedom (shamelessly cribbed from George Carlin).

As long as Guantanemo exists, as long as Leonard Peltier remains in prison, as long as corporations get away with murder because they have money, as long as you continually execute the mentally handicapped, your constitution isn't even worthy as toilet paper. You do realise that most of the civilised world stopped executing criminals sixty years ago, don't you? Your country now is little more than a crumbling Empire, a laughing stock across the world, the enemy of most thinking people. You live in a slave nation where one of your biggest industries is imprisonment and law enforcement (look at all Empires and see the same). Your culture is money orientated, profit based and violent, so bloody violent that most people in the world look at you and wag their heads in disbelief. That constitution you say you try to uphold, means nothing. The freedoms it guarantees don't exist, the laws it means to uphold have been overturned, the life and liberty you are supposed to have as a people is reserved only for those who can afford such and those who can't afford such are the most vocal in supporting their own oppressors.

Maybe you don't understand this, but I know there are many Americans who do, every single time that flag flies it does not represent the best of what you can be or have been, no matter how hard you wish it could. The wars you've started, the freedoms you've taken in the name of your own freedom, the children and women who have died to add zeroes to a war profiteers bank balance. That's your real constitution. Your true legacy in the world.

Rome is burning, your flag is the seal of Empire. All Empire's fall. Yours is falling now and you just can't see it.

Dude, you need a radio show.
Everyone sees something different in the flag, and the European countries can go jump on the log, I don't care. Yeah, America has screwed up, so has every other country. Aye, our leaders have lied, and are lieing now, that doesn't mean that we can't stop them. And you know what? We are falling! The great thing about our country is that aye, we're going to fall, just like every other bloody country, but that little piece of paper that you claim has always meant nothing will live on, because while the majority may not claim it, its a bloody good bit of writing.

Aye, so other countries have stopped executing criminals, instead you pay for them to live a better life than your less dangerous homeless. Your kidnappings, your organized crime, and your rampant outcries against anyone different are shameful. You claim to have the upper hand in societal ways (and you always have) but its all a bunch of sensationalist garbage.

Oh, wooptie-bloody-doo, you can name all of our failures! That is just amazing, I'm so glad your learned enough to do that. What you've evidently failed to grasp in your existence is how to actually make people think. It is a shameful little song and dance you sing, talking about not wanting to be violent and everyone should work things out, but you can't hold a bloody civil conversation! The first chance you get, you throw around insults and ignore any points that you can't handle addressing.

Your discrediting yourself and invalidating all the crap that you spew. I enjoy having intellectual discussions and debates, there have been and will be (I sincerely hope so anyway) people who have opened my eyes to things that I would never have been aware of before. I really hoped you would be one of them, but you can't stop slinging your crap long enough to hit on a different point. We bloody well understand you are anti-American, thats great, but if that is all you are I'm seriously doubting your ability to reason.

Please, prove me wrong and argue a topic, don't insult everyone that disagrees with you.

And yes, I'm all for owning guns. Until you can remove the ability for one person to harm another entirely from the gene pool, I'm going to carry my guns and knives with the hope that any money spent will be a bloody waste and I'll never have to use them.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by Spoon Man

Dude, you need a radio show.
*snip* .

if you ever need adopting, let me know! well spoken young sir!

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Spoon Man

Dude, you need a radio show.
Everyone sees something different in the flag, and the European countries can go jump on the log, I don't care. Yeah, America has screwed up, so has every other country. Aye, our leaders have lied, and are lieing now, that doesn't mean that we can't stop them. And you know what? We are falling! The great thing about our country is that aye, we're going to fall, just like every other bloody country, but that little piece of paper that you claim has always meant nothing will live on, because while the majority may not claim it, its a bloody good bit of writing.

Aye, so other countries have stopped executing criminals, instead you pay for them to live a better life than your less dangerous homeless. Your kidnappings, your organized crime, and your rampant outcries against anyone different are shameful. You claim to have the upper hand in societal ways (and you always have) but its all a bunch of sensationalist garbage.

Oh, wooptie-bloody-doo, you can name all of our failures! That is just amazing, I'm so glad your learned enough to do that. What you've evidently failed to grasp in your existence is how to actually make people think. It is a shameful little song and dance you sing, talking about not wanting to be violent and everyone should work things out, but you can't hold a bloody civil conversation! The first chance you get, you throw around insults and ignore any points that you can't handle addressing.

Your discrediting yourself and invalidating all the crap that you spew. I enjoy having intellectual discussions and debates, there have been and will be (I sincerely hope so anyway) people who have opened my eyes to things that I would never have been aware of before. I really hoped you would be one of them, but you can't stop slinging your crap long enough to hit on a different point. We bloody well understand you are anti-American, thats great, but if that is all you are I'm seriously doubting your ability to reason.

Please, prove me wrong and argue a topic, don't insult everyone that disagrees with you.

And yes, I'm all for owning guns. Until you can remove the ability for one person to harm another entirely from the gene pool, I'm going to carry my guns and knives with the hope that any money spent will be a bloody waste and I'll never have to use them.

You proved yourself wrong. You haven't yet made a claim or backed it with any information. You talk of the constitution yet are unwilling to see that it no longer applies. I need only one example to invalidate your faith and trust in the constitution - all you have to look at is Guantanemo and the suspension of Habeas Corpus to know that your constitution isn't being followed any longer, if it ever was.

And no, I'm not Anti-American, I am Anti-America though, as it stands, as a war nation with no concern for what it does on this planet. There are plenty of Americans who I love, who have shaped me over time - Noam Chompsky, Emma Goldman, Howard Zinn, Neil Young, Pete Seeger, Martin Luther King Jr.... the list is pretty much endless from writer to actor to social activist, America has and will continue to produce some of the finest human beings on this earth. The Americans I don't like, are the ones like you. With your guns and your knives and your blind faith in following someone else's rules. Your salutes and your unwillingness to face up to the realities of what your country means beyond your own borders. Shit, England and the UK did it a hundred years ago when we lost our stupid little Empire, and you'll have to do it yourself soon enough, constitution or no.

Yes, we don't execute people for their crimes. Do you know why? Because we're not savages. We're not, as Europeans and the many other countries that do not resort to such thuggery, living in the past. I don't care if they spend a million pounds so someone isn't butchered, it's money well spent so that we do not, and never return back to that barbarous and inhuman practice of sanctioned murder. An eye for an eye is only for those stupid enough to put their faith in a 2,000 year old book (want to talk about the hypocrisy of a free country that pledges allegiance to a god? And how you're not a republic at all but a Christian Theocrocy? There's plenty there to discuss).

Again I say, make a point and I'll address it. I can go on and on about what you've done, what you're doing, and what you plan to do as a country. I can show you all the reason why you shouldn't blindly salute a flag, or even have much more than disgust for that ragged piece of cloth. Would you have us talk about the torture, rape and murder done under and sanctioned by the US Military? There are plenty of examples of such - Abu Graihb, Guantanemo, the newly discovered Iraqi detention centres? Would you have us go, point by point, picture by picture, through the atrocities performed by US soldiers with that same patriotic fervour that you, and the other Mobileread New Patriots, exhibit? Or should we go to the arms sales to dictatorships used to wipe out significant portions of ethnic populations? Shall we go to the shameful treatment of the Katrina victims? Or perhaps the unenforced rules and blind-eyes turned by your governments that resulted in the BP oil spill? Shall we investigate the money given to Israel to murder civilians in occupied territories?

Here is what your flag has come to represnet for most, the images that come to mind every single time we hear about the stars and stripes and your stupid freedom (which you don't even have)





Want more? I have plenty from Amnesty International along with the thousands upon thousand of crimes against humanity performed in the name of 'America' and your constitution.

On 11/09/2001 America had the world on its side (and don't think that Muslims all over the world weren't with you either). You could have brought in an era of peace and understanding, an era of new co-operation. You could have built a monument in the honour of the 2,0000 + dead in those towers merely with actions alone. Instead you picked up the gun, saddled your horse, and started wars that still haven't ended. You know where your flag is now? It's burned in the dusty streets of a foreign land where the orphaned children have nothing but revenge in their hearts. It's draped over the coffins of young men and women too stupid or blinded by patriotism to question why they were fighting and if it would do any good. It flies at half mast on lawns across your nation, a reminder, forever that the price of your freedom is the death of others, the violent insertion of your way of life into that of others. It's in the offices of CEO's who rub their hands together thinking of all the money this devastation is going to bring in.

Don't talk to me of constitutions when you continually trample on the world. No piece of paper gives you that right. And so, ignore the world, fine, live in your little Disney fantasy of what America might have been, but it isn't, and you know deep down it never will be what that piece of paper set it out to be. From your economics, to your excursions in the sand, your country is an exemplar of greed, violence and ignorance.

Long live America. Home of the unquestioning. Land of the slave.