Amazon Censorship Expands

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by nguirado

Yes, it does. It shows that there's a way to talk about reality without succumbing to the prurient. I'm sure you can tell the difference between books that discuss rape and incest to make a point and those that do to titilate.

The point being made is one of exercising judgment. There's also a world of difference between a "how-to" book on child pedophilia and a novel that deals with the subject of rape.

But if titillation is what's sought, may I suggest that collection of ancient love poetry also found within the pages of the aforementioned anthology that goes by the name in English of The Song of Songs. It can be quite arousing in spots.

[eppythacher]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

I hate to break this to you, but very few events are truly predictable in this fashion.

I also find it rather hilarious that you describe Amazon as though they were Luddites who resist changes. Amazon sparked and/or capitalized on numerous major changes in book retail (online sales, long tail, pushing ebooks, self-publishing). They are hardly dinosaurs of an earlier era.



There is absolutely no way to know.

Practices that were tolerated, accepted or downright expected in Ancient Greece and Rome (homosexuality, pedophilia, death in sporting events) became outlawed, taboo and unacceptable in subsequent eras. A nation like Lebanon could swing from a relatively relaxed and liberal attitude towards social behaviors, to more restrictive social codes if the government swings towards a strict form of Islam.

Or, the Hispanic population -- which is heavily Catholic and not especially tolerant towards homosexuality iirc -- could continue to grow in the US, and may put the kibosh on some of these types of recent changes.

History is not teleological nor guaranteed to move in a particular direction.

Nor can we take unknown future attitudes as a viable guide for ethical behavior. Either you believe that gay marriage is acceptable, or you don't. There is no point cowering in fear over what judgment some unknown future observer will pass upon the present.

In terms of banning books, I think you can look to the past to see how the future will judge you. In the ~3000? years of written human history, when a government or company has banned a book do we look back and think that was a good idea? My book banning history is very bad, but looking though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_governments

and

http://www.ala.org/ala/issuesadvocac...sics/index.cfm

It seems like banning is Always a bad idea, (but I might be wrong, please show when banning a book was a good idea for a company or government.)

[Redcard]

I still am confused about this whole issue.

Did we ever determine WHY this book was pulled? Not the letter he got, but the actual events that led to this book being pulled? Because I still don't think it's as big a deal as people think, and I don't think Amazon did this so much as an automated process run by amazon did this.

[eppythacher]

http://www.ala.org/ala/issuesadvocac...sics/index.cfm

Banned and Challenged Classics

Each year, the ALA's (American Library Association) Office for Intellectual Freedom records hundreds of attempts by individuals and groups to have books removed from libraries shelves and from classrooms. See Frequently Challenged Books for more details.

According to the Office for Intellectual Freedom, at least 46 of the Radcliffe Publishing Course Top 100 Novels of the 20th Century have been the target of ban attempts.

The titles below represent banned or challenged books on that list (see the entire list here). For more information on why these books were challenged, visit challenged classics and the Banned Books Week Web site.

The titles not included may have been banned or challenged, but we have not received any reports on them. If you have information about the banning or challenging of these (or any) titles, please contact the Office for Intellectual Freedom.

1. The Great Gatsby, by F. Scott Fitzgerald
2. The Catcher in the Rye, by J.D. Salinger
3. The Grapes of Wrath, by John Steinbeck
4. To Kill a Mockingbird, by Harper Lee
5. The Color Purple, by Alice Walker
6. Ulysses, by James Joyce
7. Beloved, by Toni Morrison
8. The Lord of the Flies, by William Golding
9. 1984, by George Orwell

11. Lolita, by Vladmir Nabokov
12. Of Mice and Men, by John Steinbeck

15. Catch-22, by Joseph Heller
16. Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley
17. Animal Farm, by George Orwell
18. The Sun Also Rises, by Ernest Hemingway
19. As I Lay Dying, by William Faulkner
20. A Farewell to Arms, by Ernest Hemingway

23. Their Eyes Were Watching God, by Zora Neale Hurston
24. Invisible Man, by Ralph Ellison
25. Song of Solomon, by Toni Morrison
26. Gone with the Wind, by Margaret Mitchell
27. Native Son, by Richard Wright
28. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, by Ken Kesey
29. Slaughterhouse-Five, by Kurt Vonnegut
30. For Whom the Bell Tolls, by Ernest Hemingway

33. The Call of the Wild, by Jack London

36. Go Tell it on the Mountain, by James Baldwin

38. All the King's Men, by Robert Penn Warren

40. The Lord of the Rings, by J.R.R. Tolkien

45. The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair

48. Lady Chatterley's Lover, by D.H. Lawrence
49. A Clockwork Orange, by Anthony Burgess
50. The Awakening, by Kate Chopin

53. In Cold Blood, by Truman Capote

55. The Satanic Verses, by Salman Rushdie

57. Sophie's Choice, by William Styron

64. Sons and Lovers, by D.H. Lawrence

66. Cat's Cradle, by Kurt Vonnegut
67. A Separate Peace, by John Knowles

73. Naked Lunch, by William S. Burroughs
74. Brideshead Revisited, by Evelyn Waugh
75. Women in Love, by D.H. Lawrence

80. The Naked and the Dead, by Norman Mailer

84. Tropic of Cancer, by Henry Miller

88. An American Tragedy, by Theodore Dreiser

97. Rabbit, Run, by John Updike

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by ebookrights1

Let's look at this another way:

If the ebook that was pulled had been written by Ann Coulter, George W. Bush or Sarah Palin, most of you would not be crying about Freedom of Speech.
You would be dancing in the streets.

No, I wouldn't, and I think I speak for the majority of those of our members who have no more love for those folks than I do. Check my history. I've never been if favor of censorship, no matter how much I may personally despise the opinions of the authors. And I've been quick to defend the right of people to speak their minds, even when the people in question have very little mind of which to speak.

[eppythacher]

So I don't think anyone would argue that these groups don't have a right to protest books, just as Amazon has the right to ban books 24 hours a day. What the argument is is if it's a good idea to ban books. I don't think it's a good idea to ban or protest books. There, I said my position. If you think it's a good idea to ban and protest books please let the board know your reasons. Once again, this is not about company rights, just good and bad ideas.

[carld]

Originally Posted by Redcard

I still am confused about this whole issue.

Did we ever determine WHY this book was pulled? Not the letter he got, but the actual events that led to this book being pulled? Because I still don't think it's as big a deal as people think, and I don't think Amazon did this so much as an automated process run by amazon did this.

A Fox News reporter claimed it was pornography, I'm not sure if it was on the air or through a blog. I'm guessing Amazon got complaints and pulled the book from their catalog, after it had been for sale for years with no problems.

I think it's exactly as big a deal as people are claiming. This isn't the first time Amazon has targeted gay material for special treatment while leaving similar straight material alone. I don't see it as anything but anti-gay discrimination.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by tompe

You need all possible input to fully understand and discus a subject.

And from what I have heard rape and incest is not discussed in the Bible. As I understand it is is shown as totally acceptable.

Only in certain circumstances such as war, and even then you must marry her, and if you tire of her, you can't sell her into slavery because after having your way with her, it wouldn't be fitting (Deuteronomy 21:10-13).

Numbers chapter 31 shows this commandment in action, where, after having killed all the men, women, and little boys, the soldiers were allowed to keep the virgins for themselves -- after, of course, having tithed a tenth of them to the priests, "as the LORD commanded Moses."

[eppythacher]

Sometimes it seems like everyone on the subway or in the café is using an iPhone, but according to market research firm Nielsen, new smartphone buyers are going after Android phones in droves. Nielsen says that 40.8 percent of US consumers who bought a smartphone in the last six months bought Android devices, while 26.9 percent bought iPhones and 19.2 percent bought BlackBerrys.

So in this analogy, Amazon = Apple and Android = Google. Let Amazon and Apple ban all the books and Apps they want in their closed off system, they have that right. Let Google and... well Google offer their customers a choice on books and Apps, and let the market decide. Of course, if Google starts banning books I'm going to look stupid, lol.

[KarlB]

Originally Posted by ebookrights1

Let's look at this another way:

If the ebook that was pulled had been written by Ann Coulter, George W. Bush or Sarah Palin, most of you would not be crying about Freedom of Speech.
You would be dancing in the streets.

Thanks for telling us all what we believe and how we'd react to a hypothetical situation. However would we manage without you?

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by eppythacher

http://www.ala.org/ala/issuesadvocac...sics/index.cfm

Banned and Challenged Classics

Each year, the ALA's (American Library Association) Office for Intellectual Freedom records hundreds of attempts by individuals and groups to have books removed from libraries shelves and from classrooms. See Frequently Challenged Books for more details.

According to the Office for Intellectual Freedom, at least 46 of the Radcliffe Publishing Course Top 100 Novels of the 20th Century have been the target of ban attempts.

The titles below represent banned or challenged books on that list (see the entire list here). For more information on why these books were challenged, visit challenged classics and the Banned Books Week Web site.

The titles not included may have been banned or challenged, but we have not received any reports on them. If you have information about the banning or challenging of these (or any) titles, please contact the Office for Intellectual Freedom.

1. The Great Gatsby, by F. Scott Fitzgerald
2. The Catcher in the Rye, by J.D. Salinger
3. The Grapes of Wrath, by John Steinbeck
4. To Kill a Mockingbird, by Harper Lee
5. The Color Purple, by Alice Walker
6. Ulysses, by James Joyce
7. Beloved, by Toni Morrison
8. The Lord of the Flies, by William Golding
9. 1984, by George Orwell

11. Lolita, by Vladmir Nabokov
12. Of Mice and Men, by John Steinbeck

15. Catch-22, by Joseph Heller
16. Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley
17. Animal Farm, by George Orwell
18. The Sun Also Rises, by Ernest Hemingway
19. As I Lay Dying, by William Faulkner
20. A Farewell to Arms, by Ernest Hemingway

23. Their Eyes Were Watching God, by Zora Neale Hurston
24. Invisible Man, by Ralph Ellison
25. Song of Solomon, by Toni Morrison
26. Gone with the Wind, by Margaret Mitchell
27. Native Son, by Richard Wright
28. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, by Ken Kesey
29. Slaughterhouse-Five, by Kurt Vonnegut
30. For Whom the Bell Tolls, by Ernest Hemingway

33. The Call of the Wild, by Jack London

36. Go Tell it on the Mountain, by James Baldwin

38. All the King's Men, by Robert Penn Warren

40. The Lord of the Rings, by J.R.R. Tolkien

45. The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair

48. Lady Chatterley's Lover, by D.H. Lawrence
49. A Clockwork Orange, by Anthony Burgess
50. The Awakening, by Kate Chopin

53. In Cold Blood, by Truman Capote

55. The Satanic Verses, by Salman Rushdie

57. Sophie's Choice, by William Styron

64. Sons and Lovers, by D.H. Lawrence

66. Cat's Cradle, by Kurt Vonnegut
67. A Separate Peace, by John Knowles

73. Naked Lunch, by William S. Burroughs
74. Brideshead Revisited, by Evelyn Waugh
75. Women in Love, by D.H. Lawrence

80. The Naked and the Dead, by Norman Mailer

84. Tropic of Cancer, by Henry Miller

88. An American Tragedy, by Theodore Dreiser

97. Rabbit, Run, by John Updike

Thanks for that list. While I respect the right of Amazon to sell or not sell what books they please, I will not yield to them the right to be free from being criticized for any decisions they may make. And if they go too far with the self-censorship thing, I will take my business elsewhere.

[boxcorner]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Post #320
... even when the people in question have very little mind of which to speak.

Thanks, that made my day.

Originally Posted by carld

Post #322
A Fox News reporter claimed it was pornography ...

Then it must be true.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Within 5 years there will be nothing left to ban. Enjoy reading your Narnia books.

once again I have to ask if your having problems with the language or just see red whenever you see my name? try reading for content as this was a response to a comment about the legalization of gay marriage and marijuana.

[nguirado]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Only in certain circumstances such as war, and even then you must marry her, and if you tire of her, you can't sell her into slavery because after having your way with her, it wouldn't be fitting (Deuteronomy 21:10-13).

Numbers chapter 31 shows this commandment in action, where, after having killed all the men, women, and little boys, the soldiers were allowed to keep the virgins for themselves -- after, of course, having tithed a tenth of them to the priests, "as the LORD commanded Moses."

Again, you're doing a surface reading without understanding the historical context or theological implications. Jewish and Christian people have been commenting on this for thousands of years. Have you ever read any of it?

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by nguirado

Again, you're doing a surface reading without understanding the historical context or theological implications. Jewish and Christian people have been commenting on this for thousands of years. Have you ever read any of it?