Would you delete a copy of the Koran?

[GeoffC]

So you think it is okay for us to go to India (using the current example) and tell them they are wrong?

Oh - Okay, you can tell them they are wrong but you have no right to expect them to change, do you?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

So you think it is okay for us to go to India (using the current example) and tell them they are wrong?

Well, if they talk to me and I need to indicate an opinion it would be wrong to indicate something I do not believe.

Oh - Okay, you can tell them they are wrong but you have no right to expect them to change, do you?

Yes. The sub-thread was about a requirement of respecting something. It was not about changing people.

[TGS]

Maybe a more appropriate word than "respect" is tolerance. Respect is something that I might have towards the likes of Nelson Mandela or Alexander Solzhenitsyn. I don't think I can be required to have the same response to someone who believes something that appears to be loopy to me. I can, however, be expected to tolerate such diversity of views.

The difficulty of course comes when the person who is demanding respect or tolerance does not afford me the same privilege - and when they claim a special status for their views because they are "religious" or "part of their culture".

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by TGS

So, I guess the question comes down to this; when an object has some special meaning for one group people because of their beliefs, and as a result of which that group of people treat the object in a special way, is there any requirement on people who do not share those beliefs to treat the object in the same way?

No, there isn't.

But the mentality that the act of book burning connotes to me something at least as vile as the worst that religious fundamentalism can produce. Book burners are the peasants with pitchforks and torches looking to destroy anything that they don't understand. There is nothing to respect in book burners. (But deleting a Koran isn't even remotely similar-- the original purpose of the thread, IMHO, was another sad trolling attempt by AprilHare like all the "liseuse" threads.)

[EatingPie]

EDIT: FlorenceArt beat me to my original example. Smartypants!

Wow, lots of post for a just-reopened thread.

GeoffC, I think you're asking two different questions here...

Originally Posted by GeoffC

why not - it's a matter of respect.

First, you suggest we should treat the "sacred" object the same as the other culture. This, even if we do not share said cultural values, and if we are not even a part of that culture.

Then you ask...

Originally Posted by GeoffC

So you think it is okay for us to go to India (using the current example) and tell them they are wrong?

This is a vastly different question. This is actively going to someone else's culture to tell them they are wrong. Yet, the first question was simply suggesting we treat an object the same, even in our own cultural setting.

One is a quiet disagreement -- and it does not even imply "disrespect." The other is truly disrespectful, a direct attack on a cultural value.

Oh - Okay, you can tell them they are wrong but you have no right to expect them to change, do you?

Regardless of the expectation, it is absolutely disrespectful to go and tell someone a core "sacred" belief is wrong in the absence of a relationship or invited conversation.

-Pie

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

So you think it is okay for us to go to India (using the current example) and tell them they are wrong?

I wouldn't do it. But then again, I've never had door-to-door Hindus attempt to convert me. I have had Christians, Jehova's Witnesses, and Mormons do that. I don't find Hindu tracts and copies of The Cowtower lying around everywhere I go, but I find plenty of Christian tracts and Watchtowers. They have no problem going to anywhere and everywhere in the world and telling everyone else that they are wrong.

And that, to me, is the difference. A religion where the followers are willing to live and let live, content to hold their own beliefs and leave everyone else the hell alone is one that I'm going to leave pretty much alone, even though I think their beliefs are silly. It is the religions that feel it is their duty to proselytize to everyone, everywhere, all the time about how theirs is the One True Faith that make me compelled to explicitly call a Giant Pile of Crap.

[EatingPie]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

I wouldn't do it. But then again, I've never had door-to-door Hindus attempt to convert me. I have had Christians, Jehova's Witnesses, and Mormons do that. I don't find Hindu tracts and copies of The Cowtower lying around everywhere I go, but I find plenty of Christian tracts and Watchtowers. They have no problem going to anywhere and everywhere in the world and telling everyone else that they are wrong.

And that, to me, is the difference. A religion where the followers are willing to live and let live, content to hold their own beliefs and leave everyone else the hell alone is one that I'm going to leave pretty much alone, even though I think their beliefs are silly. It is the religions that feel it is their duty to proselytize to everyone, everywhere, all the time about how theirs is the One True Faith that make me compelled to explicitly call a Giant Pile of Crap.

I think this ties in with what I said above (we posted simultaneously!).

Neither am I a fan of "door to door" evangelism. But I bet if you had a friend who was a Christian (not the "door to door" type), and they invited you to discuss your beliefs, and you accepted said invitation, you would be willing to actually talk to this person. (I also don't have a problem with Watchtower tracts laying around. I disagree with their beliefs, but it's my choice whether or not to pick it up and read it.)

Heck, that's almost exactly what we're doing here in this thread, having an open, respectful discussion of very divergent beliefs on an issue. And we're not just doing so with respect, but with the moderators requiring we do so with respect!

-Pie

[recluse]

The destruction of a physical religous book is always wrong.
It is a matter of respect.
I don't hold any group responsible for the nuts who use them for their own purposes.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by EatingPie

I think this ties in with what I said above (we posted simultaneously!).

Yes,

Originally Posted by EatingPie

Regardless of the expectation, it is absolutely disrespectful to go and tell someone a core "sacred" belief is wrong in the absence of a relationship or invited conversation.

there is a difference between

a.) the Hindu standing quietly off to the side, hanging with his cow, bothering no one and you walking over and browbeating him

and

b.) the Hindu running around, going up to everyone he can find, dragging his cow around and telling everyone how wonderful his cow is, how everyone should show respect to his cow, how only people with cows are good people, and won't you find yourself a cow today and you finally yell out to him "what are you freaking nuts!?"

Most of my open complaints about religion (and this seems to tie true of typical other regular posters here) are much closer to situation b than situation a.

http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor.archive/lioaca.html

However, when in a discussion about objective facts-- such as the age of the universe or the fact of evolution, it is not even theoretically possible for me to care any less if those facts or the discussion of them "offends" people who's religious beliefs are at odds with those facts.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

When in India, respect their cows .... what we do in 'our world' matters not.

If someone holds a belief that is not one's own, then accept and ignore it; why feel the need to change them? (unless it's an issue detrimental to health (for example).

ok. let's try this example. in this country many people hold the flag in high esteem and honor. then there are a bunch of folks that feel anytime they need to get their negative feelings towards the government across they need to very publicly burn it. this whole issue came to a head under 1st Ammendment rights discussions, all the way to the Supreme Court. the Supreme Court decided that it IS a constitutionaly protected right to burn the flag while making a statement. so even though a lot of people, myself included hold that the flag is an item deserving of the highest respect and honor, we have to give way, up to and including donning the uniform that that flag represents to protect the first ammendment rights of those folks with an attitude and "something" to say.

is it right to burn ANY sacred object? no, I don't believe so. in this country in particular do we have the protected rights to do so? yes. no matter how it might make us feel and how repugnant we may find such an act, the burning of bibles, korans, mein kampf, the witches bible, flags, copies of the constitution, or any other items held sacred by any group or sub-group is legally protected.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by recluse

The destruction of a physical religous book is always wrong.

Why particularly religious books? I come back to the question of why objects of specifically religious significance to someone should be accorded a special status.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by EatingPie

GeoffC, I think you're asking two different questions here...

I got lost on this one, my comment that you referred to was not in response to that by TGS .... you maybe picked the wrong quote.

Not to worry...

[recluse]

Originally Posted by TGS

Why particularly religious books? I come back to the question of why objects of specifically religious significance to someone should be accorded a special status.

Why would you want to destroy anything that has an emotional, psychological or spiritual significance to another person simply because you don't agree with them?

That's the real question.

[happy_terd]

This day and age the only thing that a book burning can accomplish is a statement.
Nothing can get rid of a written work completely anymore.

I believe that if someone is protesting something worthy then it is ok to make a statement by burning a book. The whole idea that burning a book is morally wrong is crap. The freedom to urinate on an idea is just as precious as the freedom to create or embrace an idea.

Freedom is freedom. It is when we start taking the books out of other people's hands that we are wrong. But to burn your own book to make a statement...have at it.

[mrscoach]

I think we show respect for anything anyone else holds sacred or important by not disrespecting it. It could be a religious object or a national symbol such as their flag or even a picture of their ruler. We don't have to show it deference and bow down to whatever it is, but openly tearing up, defacing, or burning is wrong.

I've seen guys practically worship their cars, but that doesn't mean I have to. I can say "it's nice" and go on. If I really think it is a stupid car I can hold that opinion to myself until such time as it is asked for, or he tries to convince me his car is the epitome of all that is good. In such case I can let him know that I don't have the same opinion and his car is a POS, but he is still welcome to think it is the best thing ever built.
If he is a really good friend there is then a friendly banter back and forth and we will forever tease each other about our beliefs.