The Vent and Rant Thread

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

Bang on your manager's desk demanding more holidays, if your demands are not met forthwith then threaten to quit, or call in the union.

Yeah, that old beyotch. She's impossible.

Re the cover design 'competition', it's a sign of the times, the zeitgeist of the 'gig' economy plus the culture of 'free'.

I guess.

But does cover design really count for much in the ebook-world in terms of sales. I appreciate how one might be attracted to pick up a book in a bricks and mortar bookshop based on the cover design, but not at on-line sites like Amazon, Google, Apple etc. Can't recall where (maybe here), but I read recently of a book that sold upwards of 10,000 copies in e-book form, but only a few hundred paper copies.

OMG, YES. It is absolutely crucial. You'd be amazed at the difference a fabulous cover makes. Or even a really good one. I can prove it--I mean, not to someone else's satisfaction, unless they believe me. Because I can't show you the numbers; they're not mine.

I have seen books that were really first-rate, that were tanked by bad/poor/mediocre covers. I've seen mediocre books that are propelled into much better sales, due to fab covers.

I have a client that did his backlist--a series of books--that he wrote in the 90's. They're in a sequential series, right?

All his other books, other than Book 2, outsell Book 2. Which makes NO sense, as, see above, sequential. Right? But what does Book 2 have? A boring, dark cover. His book with a very bright, super cover? (Book 4, as it happens) outsells all the rest. And we're not talking about small differences, either; BIG differences in sales.

It's simply remarkable. Before I got into this business, I'd have said what you did, and that covers don't sell books. I would have pooh-poohed that. And I would have been 180-degrees WRONG. Covers absolutely, positively sell books.

(Or tank them, etc.) This is the best thing I've read on cover design, FWIW and if anyone is interested: http://www.creativindie.com/8-cover-...-buying-books/

Hitch

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

But does cover design really count for much in the ebook-world in terms of sales. I appreciate how one might be attracted to pick up a book in a bricks and mortar bookshop based on the cover design, but not at on-line sites like Amazon, Google, Apple etc. Can't recall where (maybe here), but I read recently of a book that sold upwards of 10,000 copies in e-book form, but only a few hundred paper copies.

It counts in eBooks for the same reason it counts in paper.

The job of the cover is to attract the reader's attention, and get them to take the book off the shelf/look at the marketing copy and reviews on the web site, as the first step in what the author hopes will be a purchase decision.

A bad cover can be death on a paper volume, and almost as bad for an eBook.

The reader may not understand what makes a cover design good as a designer would think of it, but a bad one will cause them to pass it by or actively reject it, because "bad cover" screams "bad book".

More sales in eBook form than paper aren't a big surprise, depending on the book. Fiction, for example, with a straightforward linear narrative, is made for electronic format. Other things get problematic. Non-fiction depending on topic and content may work better in paper.

And eBooks are generally cheaper (especially if self-published/indie-published) and the process is far more friction free. You can browse for titles, find one you like, purchase and download for immediate fulfillment without getting out of your chair. While it's possible to get paper volumes and have them shipped, you don't get the immediate gratification.

Without knowing more about the book, that volume that sold ten thousand in eBook format and a few hundred in paper didn't mean publishing the paper version was a poor decision. It depends on what the paper version cost to produce and what it sold for. If there hadn't been a paper version, those additional sales wouldn't have happened. People who buy in paper when an eBook is available either can't or just don't want to read an electronic copy, and wouldn't have bought it if there was only a eBook edition.
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Dennis

[BetterRed]

Never been much into instant gratification. If I could buy books printed on vellum I probably would

When I buy books on-line (digital or print) I almost always know what I want before I go to the site as a result of a review or recommendation. Occasionally I'll also buy something from the "other people also bought..." list. The other day, when buying Kate Chopin's Awakening as a gift, I also bought Ann Veronica by H.G. Wells. I'd never heard of it, didn't even know he wrote anything of a feminist nature. They were print editions, not e-books.

Dave - I think the book with large e-book sales and small print sales was a lightweight, both in terms of mass and content, self-help text. Possibly diet, fitness, or mindfulness, from my cardiac therapists reading list.

@Hitch - after reading Murphy's blog post, I can appreciate that the cover design would matter for some genre of fiction - fantasy, horror, sci-fi etc, like strap-lines matter for newspaper articles. But I don't read much any of that these days. And I'm a very non-visual person - no pictures on my walls, no boxes of family photos in my closets, I remove covers from ebooks etc.

BR

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Curious about your anti-smoking laws.
Here most restaurants are non-smoking. One is smoking but it is attached to a bar.
All public buildings are non-smoking.
For good or bad, the casinos in the state beside us and the state above us are smoking.

Cigarette packets cannot be on display in stores, must be in a plain closed door cabinets, no self serve or vending machines. Packets look like this - warning not pleasant sight. Big Tobacco fought very hard to overturn the law that bought that about. I suspect they were intending to try using TTIP to overturn the decisions of our High court, HK court, Ecuador court, WTO court etc upholding the laws, but that got Trumpled on

No smoking in any workplace, or any transport including taxis (Uber ??), there is a proposal to outlaw smoking in your car if you have any minors on board. No smoking at bus stops, train station or ferry wharves - no smoking in some public parks.

No smoking inside pubs or clubs, including the gambling rooms, if they have outdoor seating you can smoke there. Not sure about the casinos, never been in one, and my neighbour, who works in one, is not allowed in the gambling areas so she doesn't know either I would imagine patrons of the high roller dens can smoke.

Most of our state governments are addicted to gambling revenues, particularly the one I'm sitting in.

And lastly taxes - by 2020 a packet of 20 cigarettes will cost at least $40.

I can envisage a day when some publicly funded health care (heart surgery, cancer treatment etc) will only be available to non-smokers. Some surgery is already rationed informally on the whim of the surgeons.

BR

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

Cigarette packets cannot be on display in stores, must be in a plain closed door cabinets, no self serve or vending machines. Packets look like this - warning not pleasant sight. Big Tobacco fought very hard to overturn the law that bought that about. I suspect they were intending to try using TTIP to overturn the decisions of our High court, HK court, Ecuador court, WTO court etc upholding the laws, but that got Trumpled on

No smoking in any workplace, or any transport including taxis (Uber ??), there is a proposal to outlaw smoking in your car if you have any minors on board. No smoking at bus stops, train station or ferry wharves - no smoking in some public parks.

No smoking inside pubs or clubs, including the gambling rooms, if they have outdoor seating you can smoke there. Not sure about the casinos, never been in one, and my neighbour, who works in one, is not allowed in the gambling areas so she doesn't know either I would imagine patrons of the high roller dens can smoke.

Most of our state governments are addicted to gambling revenues, particularly the one I'm sitting in.

And lastly taxes - by 2020 a packet of 20 cigarettes will cost at least $40.

I can envisage a day when some publicly funded health care (heart surgery, cancer treatment etc) will only be available to non-smokers. Some surgery is already rationed informally on the whim of the surgeons.

BR

Many of our laws are similar but it varies by city. I think California already has that car law.
Taxes are why we quit smoking (or more precisely are protesting the $1 a pack tax they added 11 years ago come January 1.)

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

I can envisage a day when some publicly funded health care (heart surgery, cancer treatment etc) will only be available to non-smokers. Some surgery is already rationed informally on the whim of the surgeons.

BR

Do you envisage a day when those treatments will not be available to the obese, either? Or people who gave themselves diabetes, due to not being able to control their food intake, or their weight?

Hitch

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

And lastly taxes - by 2020 a packet of 20 cigarettes will cost at least $40.

I've been watching that with deep amusement in New York City.

The City decided that cigarettes were Bad Things, and people shouldn't smoke. (This was partially but not entirely due to health concerns.)

They couldn't just outright ban them, but they could dramatically increase the excise taxes on them. So suddenly, packets of name brand cigarettes were costing $14 US per pack.

They didn't increase the tax rate on loose tobacco, so people were discovering the joys of rolling their own.

They realized they'd left a loophole, and boosted that tax rate. But cigars are still under the old rate, so you can get a pack of cigarillos for $5 USD, and an assortment of folks switched.

The most recent amusement came when the state governor approved medical marijuana. A friend who lives in the state capitol area said "He didn't want to - it was more or less over his dead body!". My response was "It doesn't matter why he did it. The point is that he did it, and the camel's nose is now in the tent!" I'm certain there are people in NYC government rubbing their hands together and salivating over the tax revenues they can collect if recreational marijuana becomes legal and can be sold over the counter in the same shops that sell cigarettes.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

When I buy books on-line (digital or print) I almost always know what I want before I go to the site as a result of a review or recommendation.

It's the problem of discovery. How do you discover new stuff you might like to read?

Reviews and recommendations are major sources of discovery, but random browsing is another important component.

And I'm a very non-visual person - no pictures on my walls, no boxes of family photos in my closets, I remove covers from ebooks etc.

Which I think is the key for your experience. If you aren't visual, covers wont be an attraction, and good/bad won't matter.

For most readers, covers matter more than many suppose.
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Dennis

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

It's the problem of discovery. How do you discover new stuff you might like to read?

Reviews and recommendations are major sources of discover, but random browsing is another important component.


Which I think is the key for your experience. If you aren't visual, covers wont be an attraction, and good/bad won't matter.

For most readers, covers matter more than many suppose.
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Dennis

I want to add to this only that this is absolutely also true for non-fiction. I have seen many competently researched, well-written non-fiction books sink, due to the belief that the ONLY thing that mattered was the work, not the marketing.

Bad covers sink books, period. You'll never even know it exists, because those books that had authors/self-pubs that paid attention, who put attractive covers in place, will rise to the top of the search results. (More clicks, more sales, higher ranking). That much-better book, with the crap cover? Will slowly disappear into the murk and mire of search, ne'er to be seen or found.

/done now with the lecture. If you don't write and publish, it doesn't matter to you, but it's a very, very real thing. The visual character of the rest of your compatriots affects what YOU see, in searches or browsing.

FYI, I'm not a compulsive visual person, either. I think in text, not pictures. The fact that covers mattered so much was a thoroughgoing shock to my CNS. But I cannot deny what I've now seen proven to me, over and over and over. It's real and it exists. It's like...Coverism, instead of racism or bigotry. The better the cover, the better the sales, AND, the better the position in search, for that specific book. Obviously, if the first page of the book isn't readable, that won't quite hold true--but the clicks through to it will still exist--and that bad book with the great cover will STILL take the place of a far, far better-written book on a search.

So, while we are not particularly drawn to a book, based on covers, the fact that most people ARE affects both of us--like it or not. It affects our search results and search positions for books, and thus, the books/choices presented to us, in our searches.


Hitch

[John F]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

...

For most readers, covers matter more than many suppose.
...

Definitely. It lets me skip over all those Harlequin romance books when I check what has recently been added at the library.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I want to add to this only that this is absolutely also true for non-fiction. I have seen many competently researched, well-written non-fiction books sink, due to the belief that the ONLY thing that mattered was the work, not the marketing.

The work absolutely matters. But readers have to know the work exists before they can decide to buy.

Marketing is essential, whether you are self/indie published or traditionally published. You must do everything you can to let your intended audience know you and your work exist, or you can't sell anything.

FYI, I'm not a compulsive visual person, either. I think in text, not pictures. The fact that covers mattered so much was a thoroughgoing shock to my CNS. But I cannot deny what I've now seen proven to me, over and over and over. It's real and it exists. It's like...Coverism, instead of racism or bigotry. The better the cover, the better the sales, AND, the better the position in search, for that specific book. Obviously, if the first page of the book isn't readable, that won't quite hold true--but the clicks through to it will still exist--and that bad book with the great cover will STILL take the place of a far, far better-written book on a search.

I consider myself a visual person, but most people think in text.

We perceive the world through our senses, and the world we live in is a model constructed by our brain based on sensory input. And we each have a sense which will be primary. In my case, it's vision. I see pictures in my head. Some books won't work for me because the pieces don't fit together, and I say "You can't get there from here!"

Other folks are different. My SO's primary sense is hearing. If she asks me a technical question, my impulse is to grab pencil and paper and draw a diagram, but that will convey nothing to her. I need to find a different metaphor to get across my concept.

A chap I corresponded with elsewhere said his primary sense was touch. He felt holes in arguments.

And I ran across a case of a guy who couldn't find his way to work. He was highly intelligent and a trained engineer. Testing revealed he was not visual at all. Landmarks conveyed nothing to him. But he did have a strong kinesthetic sense.

So they drove him from his home to his office in a tightly sprung sports car that communicated every twist and dip in the road. Thereafter, he could drive to work with no problem because his body remembered what the drive felt like.

And along those lines, in an interview I saw years back, a prominent cosmologist stated he didn't think in mathematics, and neither did any other cosmologist he knew. His primary sense was vision. When he got a new physics concept, he saw a picture in his head. Sitting down afterward and doing the math to explain the picture was simple rote work. The initial idea was visual.
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Dennis

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by John F

Definitely. It lets me skip over all those Harlequin romance books when I check what has recently been added at the library.

Does this mean I shouldn't put a half naked man on cin's guide to everything?

[John F]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Does this mean I shouldn't put a half naked man on cin's guide to everything?

By all means, please put one on.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by John F

Definitely. It lets me skip over all those Harlequin romance books when I check what has recently been added at the library.

It goes farther than that.

In the late 60's/early 70's, the late Terry Carr editing the Ace SF Specials line for Ace books. The line was all paperback original SF books. He called on his friends, iconic illustrators Leo and Diane Dillon, to do the covers. They commented they threw out everything they knew about cover design. The books all had the same format - a white strip at the top with book title and author's name in a small sans serif font, and the rest of the cover was a Dillon painting. Carr asked Ace's Sales Director how the line was doing, and he said "If I told you, you'd hit the publisher for a raise!" The books looked unlike anything else on the shelves in the SF section, and could be found at a glance.

Also back there, there was a popular genre called gothic romance. The cover format was highly standardized. All of the covers featured a frightened young woman running away from a house on a hill in a moonlit night, and there was a single light in a second story window in the house. If there was any variation in that formula, the book died on the shelves. That formula cover was how the audience for teh genre knew the book was a gothic romance.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Does this mean I shouldn't put a half naked man on cin's guide to everything?

Yes. If he's not fully naked, it's not a guide to everything...
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Dennis