Roma by Steven Saylor

[Ea]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

It cost me $23 to get this book!

Well, kinda.
...

Don't worry, we are here for you. Just let it out, it'll be all right

-- you are already reading, aren't you?

[Over]

I've loved the Gordianus adventures. Although I think Roma is a different kind of book. But still worth a try... When it gets available in ebook format in Europe.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Over

I've loved the Gordianus adventures. Although I think Roma is a different kind of book. But still worth a try... When it gets available in ebook format in Europe.

It is very different, but extremely enjoyable. I read it as a paper book a couple of years ago and loved it.

[ctol]

Originally Posted by queentess

Not my typical read, but I am interested in Roman history and this sounds very likable. Can't beat $3!

Got it as well. Will be reading it when I get through with some other books. It looks quite good.

Queentess if you and other members here at Mobileread want to read what are still probably the best intros to roman history might I suggest the following books at these links.


http://www.questia.com/read/88132230...20146%20B.%20C

http://inkmesh.com/ebooks/rubicon-to...qs=tom+holland

http://www.archive.org/search.php?qu...iatype%3Atexts

Also Theodor Mommsen's History Of Rome is another good one to look at as well.

Hope you enjoy these.

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by ctol

Got it as well. Will be reading it when I get through with some other books. It looks quite good.

Queentess if you and other members here at Mobileread want to read what are still probably the best intros to roman history might I suggest the following books at these links.


http://www.questia.com/read/88132230...20146%20B.%20C

http://inkmesh.com/ebooks/rubicon-to...qs=tom+holland

http://www.archive.org/search.php?qu...iatype%3Atexts

Also Theodor Mommsen's History Of Rome is another good one to look at as well.

Hope you enjoy these.

Thanks, ctol. I love ancient history (which is probably obvious, looking at my user name!).

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by Ea

Don't worry, we are here for you. Just let it out, it'll be all right

-- you are already reading, aren't you?

Actually I started with Roman Blood. I've wanted that one for a long time.

Of the two authors - Steven Saylor (Roman Blood), and Simon Scarrow (Under the Eagle), I would say that Saylor is, so far, the better writer but that Scarrow's book reads much faster.

Saylor brings you into Roman life, word by word. Scarrow pushes you thru an exciting adventure with little time to stop and look around you.

I really like it when I can find an author with a good series, and here are two of them.

If Scarrow has a weak point it's in the use of familiar words instead of "Roman" words. I say Roman as not all words used in the Roman army would be Latin.

Ex. - Cato's short sword flashed out to meet the enemy's attack.

As opposed to - Cato's gladius flashed out to meet the enemy’s attack.

At the start of the book he could introduce the gladius as a short sword, and then used the word gladius from that point on.

In that Under the Eagle was his first "Roman" book, written for a UK audience, I can make allowances for simplifications. Were it written for an Australian or US audience others might have the same complaint. Only further reading of the series will tell.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

...

If Scarrow has a weak point it's in the use of familiar words instead of "Roman" words. I say Roman as not all words used in the Roman army would be Latin.

Ex. - Cato's short sword flashed out to meet the enemy's attack.

As opposed to - Cato's gladius flashed out to meet the enemy’s attack.

At the start of the book he could introduce the gladius as a short sword, and then used the word gladius from that point on.

In that Under the Eagle was his first "Roman" book, written for a UK audience, I can make allowances for simplifications. Were it written for an Australian or US audience others might have the same complaint. Only further reading of the series will tell.

Not quite sure I follow you here... Would you prefer the use of 'gladius' over 'short sword'? And would Australian and USA audiences be much more likely to know what a gladius is than a British audience? That's what I understand you are saying.

Personally I'd be cautious about using too many 'original' words, however historically correct they may be, if they get in the way of the narrative - it's a story told in English after all. Not that "short sword" sounds much better either.

It's not that I can't understand the need for accuracy, but too much of it kills the story. It's like in historical films; the design is a balance between what was actually there, what the audience expect, what looks good, and what aids the narrative.

[SameOldStory]

"Not quite sure I follow you here... Would you prefer the use of 'gladius' over 'short sword'?"

After introducing the word gladius as a short sword, yes. A judicious use of some common Latin words would add flavor to the story. If you would, try using the Danish equivalent of Centurion, Roman Cohort, or Legion.

For the US equivalents -
Centurion more or less = Colonel
A Roman Cohort, again, more or less = Battalion - 300 to 1,000 soldiers
A Legion more or less = Brigade - 3,000 to 5,000 solders. ( Normally commanded by a colonel)

Of course these are inaccurate equivalents as the Roman army changed over the years.

So lets try this -
The Centurion ordered his Cohort formed up, after which the Legion assembled for the march.

The colonel had the battalion formed up, after which the brigade assembled for the march.

Even if the second sentence was about a Roman army on the march, that is not the image that would be evoked.

Which is more interesting?
"The Rime of the Ancient Mariner"
or
"The story of the old sailor"


"And would Australian and USA audiences be much more likely to know what a gladius is than a British audience? That's what I understand you are saying."

"In that Under the Eagle was his first "Roman" book, written for a UK audience, I can make allowances for simplifications."

That was poorly stated. I meant that to simplify the story so that it would read more easily, some British colloquialisms and idioms were used. Were this done with American or Australian idioms, people in the UK would notice it too.

As I'm sure that had it been written by a Dane using Danish idioms all three would decide that it wasn’t what they were used to. That's not a complaint. You have to write to your audience, and his was British.


"It's not that I can't understand the need for accuracy, but too much of it kills the story."

True. The authors job is to tell a story, not teach Latin. But as in my first point, slowly introducing the language into the story enhances the flavor of that story.

Imagine an old time (US) mobster story without the use of such words and phrases such as "packing iron", "doll", "bumped off", "a new racket", "joint", etc. Substitute the correct words and the old time flavor is lost.

[Ea]

Then we are in agreement I think it was the word "gladius" that threw me - and it was difficult to imagine it might be more commonly known in Australia and USA than Britain It's such a balance to find the right words; enough to give the right flavour.

[owl123]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

If Scarrow has a weak point it's in the use of familiar words instead of "Roman" words.

Are Scarrow's books actually "Roman" at all? They could be very well set in any times. It's Saylor who gives as a truly Roman world to marvel at.

If you're into historical fiction set in Ancient Rome (and especially in the times of Republic) I wholeheartedly recommend Benita Kane Jaro's "The Lock" and especially "The Door in the Wall". They're available through Netlibrary and... via the "darknet". They can't be normally bought as an ebook which is a shame.

[badgoodDeb]

Has anybody read Gillian Bradshaw, to know how she compares? Lots of historical novels, some in Rome, some elsewhere.

I mean -- I've read Bradshaw, but I haven't read the authors you are discussing here.

[SameOldStory]

Originally Posted by owl123

Are Scarrow's books actually "Roman" at all? They could be very well set in any times. It's Saylor who gives as a truly Roman world to marvel at.

If you're into historical fiction set in Ancient Rome (and especially in the times of Republic) I wholeheartedly recommend Benita Kane Jaro's "The Lock" and especially "The Door in the Wall". They're available through Netlibrary and... via the "darknet". They can't be normally bought as an ebook which is a shame.

Thanks for the book sugestions.

The Lives of the Twelve Caesars may also be of interest.

Are they actually in Rome? no. Are they based on, and in, the Roman Republic/Empire? Yes. Rome was many places and many times.

What is Rome to you? The Roman Kingdom, Roman Republic, or the Roman Empire? "Rome" was big, in both time and space. The city of Rome was a little smaller.

They are quite "Roman" whereever they may be, and anywhere that Rome controled.

[owl123]

SameOldStory: My point was that Scarrow's books could be set in any historical times: 15th century England or 17th century France. There's no Roman "feel" to them - for me, that is.

Scarrow's books are simple adventure-style books where times or history don't seem to be important at all.

Oh, and if you're into self-published books then Brandon Winningham's Catiline might be worth spending $6 on. (The ebook version is available through iUniverse's website).

[SameOldStory]

I hope you can give a better synopsis than what I found online (all the same, in 4 places)

" His political career had taken a near-devastating blow when three years before he had found himself before a jury of Roman knights (?) for allegedly having sexual relations with a Vestal Virgin"


From my post, #21.
"Of the two authors - Steven Saylor (Roman Blood), and Simon Scarrow (Under the Eagle), I would say that Saylor is, so far, the better writer but that Scarrow's book reads much faster.

Saylor brings you into Roman life, word by word. Scarrow pushes you thru an exciting adventure with little time to stop and look around you."

Originally Posted by owl123

SameOldStory: My point was that Scarrow's books could be set in any historical times: 15th century England or 17th century France. There's no Roman "feel" to them - for me, that is.

That’s what Ea and I were talking about re. Simon Scarrow. Saylor has just the right amount of Latin in the story to fill out the story and bring you in touch with the environment of the story. Scarrow needs to do more of that.

Originally Posted by owl123

SameOldStory: My point was that Scarrow's books could be set in any historical times: 15th century England or 17th century France. There's no Roman "feel" to them - for me, that is.

That's my feeling about both books, Under the Eagle and Roman Blood.

Under the Eagle is a very good adventure story. The protagonists grow into characters that you can understand and empathize with.

Roman Blood is a well planed mystery. But the similarity to Sherlock Holmes is very strong.

From page 15, Roman Blood
"You've mistaken your pronouns, sir. It's I who am to explain my coming to you."

"On the contrary. It's true, as you could tell from the look on my face, that I've never heard of your master -- what was his name, Marcus something-or-other Cicero? A total stranger. Nonetheless, I can tell you a few things about him...."

This is a mystery book that any mystery reader would love. But with a few changes, it could take place almost anywhere London, Amsterdam, or New York.

Saylor is a better writer, no question, but at this point in time I would have finished Scarrow's book. Scarrow has a greater immediacy to his prose.

[owl123]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

I hope you can give a better synopsis than what I found online (all the same, in 4 places)

" His political career had taken a near-devastating blow when three years before he had found himself before a jury of Roman knights (?) for allegedly having sexual relations with a Vestal Virgin"

"Knights" is a perfectly fine and accepted synonym for "equites" as in members of the Equestrian order.

As for the synopsis: Well, the book is about, rather notorious, Lucius Sergius Catilina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catiline. Catiline is also the protagonist in Lustrum by Robert Harris.