discuss: most ebooks are inferior to their paper versions - Page 2

Ea · 08-20-2010, 04:23 PM

I think you're right. Good formatting aids the reading experience. Accents and italics and such have also been put like that by the author for a reason - if you are dismissing them, you're losing part of the author's work. Imagine Cormac McCarthy with ordinary punctuation for instance*. In older PG texts, italics (or otherwise emphasised words) are written as CAPS - that's equally annoying while reading.

*okay, not the ideal example, since he simplifies it - but changing his specific punctuation for any reason would be plain wrong

Lexi Revellian · 08-20-2010, 05:12 PM

Good God, I can't believe some of you are saying it doesn't matter if you're not reading the text as the author intended! Of course it matters. I'm absolutely obsessive about zero typos in my books, and if I put a word in italics, that's how it's meant to be and should stay. One of the things that frets me about ebooks is the comparative lack of control one has over the finished project, and for that reason, I'll be happier about the paperback version.

ardeegee · 08-20-2010, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexi Revellian

Good God, I can't believe some of you are saying it doesn't matter if you're not reading the text as the author intended!

I wouldn't say that it doesn't matter, just that it isn't critical.

I wouldn't say that it doesn't matter, just that it isn't critical.

See-- both sentences are understandable.

Purple Lady · 08-21-2010, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madwab

Hi, folks, I'm new to ebooks and to the forum, but I've had a hunt around the net and around this forum, and I'm hugely disappointed in two things: (a) most of the books I've checked have lost the formatting of the original, in particular the author's italics, and (b) there doesn't seem to be much interest in the community about this issue.

Given that italics can change the tone of a sentence quite drastically, surely it's important that they're retained? I understand that a lot of books have been saved as .txt files at some point in their lives, but I'm sure that's not the only explanation: I have the impression that most people don't care.

Have a look for Les Miserables on amazon's Kindle store - there are 67 matches, most of which are the Isabel F Hapgood translation, which uses italics. None of them are free. I've downloaded the sample for most of them, and I haven't found one that has retained the italics.

A few days ago I updated my Dickens novels collection from mobileread.com, and was very pleased to find that all of them were formatted correctly; but the Les Miserables file is just another modified .txt version.

Is it just me, or are others frustrated by this? (And can anyone point me at a formatted version of Les Mis?)

Project Gutenberg has a version of the Isabel F Hapgood translation with italics, but only the html version has them. I converted it to mobi in calibre, but the italics wrapped lines if you try to increase the font size in Kindle 4 pc. calibre didn't get rid of the large margins on the sides either. if you have good eyes and can use a small font, maybe this would work for you.

Lexi Revellian · 08-21-2010, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardeegee

I wouldn't say that it doesn't matter, just that it isn't critical.

I wouldn't say that it doesn't matter, just that it isn't critical.

See-- both sentences are understandable.

Yes; just as a bike will get you there even if the tyres are a little flat and the chain's squeaking. I'd rather ride a well maintained bike, though.

HarryT · 08-21-2010, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardeegee

I wouldn't say that it doesn't matter, just that it isn't critical.

I wouldn't say that it doesn't matter, just that it isn't critical.

See-- both sentences are understandable.

But their "tone" is entirely different, and if you were speaking the sentences out loud, you'd say them in a completely different manner. In the first sentence, the words in italics are emphatic, and you'd stress them in speech. In the second sentence, those same words are "neutral" in the sentence, and you'd say them in a totally different way.

Italics really are a vital part of a book.

Lexi Revellian · 08-21-2010, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

But their "tone" is entirely different, and if you were speaking the sentences out loud, you'd say them in a completely different manner. In the first sentence, the words in italics are emphatic, and you'd stress them in speech. In the second sentence, those same words are "neutral" in the sentence, and you'd say them in a totally different way.

Italics really are a vital part of a book.

Also, it's a common convention these days to put thoughts in italics. Remove the italics, and the reader may not realize it's what the character is thinking.

Ea · 08-21-2010, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexi Revellian

Also, it's a common convention these days to put thoughts in italics. Remove the italics, and the reader may not realize it's what the character is thinking.

Exactly. A great risk for a confused reader.

Jellby · 08-21-2010, 05:06 AM

Not so long ago, books were written with no punctuation at all and no paragraph breaks, yet people seemed to understand them.

Ea · 08-21-2010, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellby

Not so long ago, books were written with no punctuation at all and no paragraph breaks, yet people seemed to understand them.

You can always improve on a good thing.

madwab · 08-23-2010, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

Project Gutenberg has a version of the Isabel F Hapgood translation with italics

Are you sure? The PG version that I see has some, but only very limited, formatting: the tables in chapter 2 are italicised, and a few French words, eg 'Curé', have accents. The vast majority of the accents and all the embedded italics are missing, compared with my printed version of Hapgood's translation.

I've started working on a formatted version, but it's a huge book with a lot of French textual symbols (accents etc); I could probably do just the italics in a week, but a proper job will be a lot longer. Global changes are particularly dangerous - 'Château' v 'Chateaubriand', for example. (I took the PG version as my start point, so I was surprised to see a claim that it is formatted...)

HarryT · 08-23-2010, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madwab

I've started working on a formatted version, but it's a huge book with a lot of French textual symbols (accents etc); I could probably do just the italics in a week, but a proper job will be a lot longer. Global changes are particularly dangerous - 'Château' v 'Chateaubriand', for example. (I took the PG version as my start point, so I was surprised to see a claim that it is formatted...)

Such things are indeed a lot of work, and although "search and replace" can do a lot for you, there's really no substitute for a careful "side by side comparison with a reliable printed edition" proofing.

The "'Château v Chateaubriand" example you give can be solved with a "whole word only" replacement, of course.

speakingtohe · 08-23-2010, 11:23 AM

With the lighting where I am temporarily staying I have to have my text fairly large to read in bed soformatting really does not make much difference as long as the words flow.
At a smaller font size a well formatted book looks better but I cease to notice after the first couple of pages as it is all about the book itself.
Headers, page numbers and non flowable text can be irritating though.
Helen

nyrath · 08-23-2010, 12:21 PM

My favorite books are 1960's era science fiction novels. They make extensive use of italics, and the em-dash (bold and underlining, not so much). So that is what I look for in eBooks of this genre.

Yes, omitting some italics can alter the entire meaning of a sentence.

AnemicOak · 08-23-2010, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Italics really are a vital part of a book.

I agree.

As are IMO things like EM dashes and scene breaks.

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08-20-2010, 04:23 PM	#16
Ea Wizard Posts: 3,490 Karma: 5239563 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Denmark Device: Kindle 3\|iPad air\|iPhone 4S	I think you're right. Good formatting aids the reading experience. Accents and italics and such have also been put like that by the author for a reason - if you are dismissing them, you're losing part of the author's work. Imagine Cormac McCarthy with ordinary punctuation for instance. In older PG texts, italics (or otherwise emphasised words) are written as CAPS - that's equally annoying while reading. okay, not the ideal example, since he simplifies it - but changing his specific punctuation for any reason would be plain wrong

08-20-2010, 05:12 PM	#17
Lexi Revellian Groupie Posts: 172 Karma: 200001 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: London Device: Kindle keyboard	Good God, I can't believe some of you are saying it doesn't matter if you're not reading the text as the author intended! Of course it matters. I'm absolutely obsessive about zero typos in my books, and if I put a word in italics, that's how it's meant to be and should stay. One of the things that frets me about ebooks is the comparative lack of control one has over the finished project, and for that reason, I'll be happier about the paperback version.

08-21-2010, 05:06 AM	#24
Jellby frumious Bandersnatch Posts: 7,546 Karma: 19001583 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spaniard in Sweden Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura	Not so long ago, books were written with no punctuation at all and no paragraph breaks, yet people seemed to understand them.

08-23-2010, 11:23 AM	#28
speakingtohe Wizard Posts: 4,812 Karma: 26912940 Join Date: Apr 2010 Device: sony PRS-T1 and T3, Kobo Mini and Aura HD, Tablet	With the lighting where I am temporarily staying I have to have my text fairly large to read in bed soformatting really does not make much difference as long as the words flow. At a smaller font size a well formatted book looks better but I cease to notice after the first couple of pages as it is all about the book itself. Headers, page numbers and non flowable text can be irritating though. Helen

08-23-2010, 12:21 PM	#29
nyrath Addict Posts: 281 Karma: 52007 Join Date: Jun 2010 Device: nook	My favorite books are 1960's era science fiction novels. They make extensive use of italics, and the em-dash (bold and underlining, not so much). So that is what I look for in eBooks of this genre. Yes, omitting some italics can alter the entire meaning of a sentence.

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