Your opinion: Which is the appropriate price for the iRex iLiad?

[The GreatGonzo]

Originally Posted by jæd

I think the main problem with the Iliad is that its the first of its kind and everyone has projected their desires on it. Which has led to an extended gap between expectation and reality. Personally, I'm very satisfied with what Matthijs & Co have put together. With each month last year their product has got better and better, and I think that in 2007 it will come into its own...

Couldn't agree more; a lot of the negative reviews and the bitter tone prevalent in them are really the result of people's expectations not being met fast enough. Doesn't mean the Iliad isn't the worth the money ... From what I read around here about the Sony Reader, I've come to the conclusion that I did the right thing when I paid more money for what is clearly a superior device.
The Iliad rules! IMHO.

[CommanderROR]

@b_k

The problem with HTML for me is that it's not really working for books at the moment. Page-break is not there, paging and jump to last page is not there (or was not when I last looked, but there has been no announcement so I guess nothing has changed...) so I can't really use it to read HTML format books.
I'd prefer HTML or RTF or even .txt for books over PDF because it would mean that I don't have to go through the whole formatting procedure every time I start a new book. I also can't change the text-size in PDF (apart from zooming and panning which is in my opinion not really eink compatible...).
TXT is supported in the Iliad, but also doesn't work (again, last time I tried) because it somehow does not reflow the text but let's it go on further than the edge of the screen...and other features are also missing like the page-numbers and similar (just like HTML).
Using the HTML browser for web-browsing is not supported by iRex at the moment...and there is no complete and easy-to-use community method for this yet slthough it is possible.

@jaed

One day you will have to explain to me what you think is so great about the Iliad and what you use it for. For reading it's barely adequate, and that is the most basic use you can put it to.
If you are willing to accept lots of compromises, then you might be happy with the device, but for 650€ I'm not going to shut up and lie down when almost every feature that was promised beforehand is being only half implemented or not at all.
Look at the datasheet and then look at what you have now, almost half a year after the (already delayed) release date...

[b_k]

the HTML paging works. but the problem is, the iLiad does threat a single HTML file as what it is, a single page. If you want it right, you have to setup a manifest.xml and have every page in it's own HTML file. I don't think there is an easy way to get around that.
And CSS entries for paging are supposed to be used only when printing. Or the browser must be set to "print preview".

[jæd]

Originally Posted by CommanderROR

The problem with HTML for me is that it's not really working for books at the moment.

I regularly use my chm converter to convert chm files into Iliad html compatible books. They work fine...

Using the HTML browser for web-browsing is not supported by iRex at the moment...and there is no complete and easy-to-use community method for this yet slthough it is possible.

Yep there is... Use the shell-script hack to start-up wireless and use a pre-generated html file to get you to Google. Or use the Dillo port...

Originally Posted by CommanderROR

One day you will have to explain to me what you think is so great about the Iliad and what you use it for. For reading it's barely adequate, and that is the most basic use you can put it to.

I think I've mentioned often enough what my Iliad gets up to... Dunno what you mean by "barely adequate" but I can read documents on mine perfectly "adequately"...

Originally Posted by CommanderROR

Look at the datasheet and then look at what you have now, almost half a year after the (already delayed) release date...

I might be repeating myself here, but I was fully aware of the state of the Iliad from early reviews, and my decision was based on that (I've been burned by vs 1 products before)... I'll be the first to admit the early firmware was a bit rough'n'ready, but the later versions (since zooming + panning) have made the iLiad worth it...

If the Iliad is really "barely adequate" then how come you don't put your device on Ebay and get a Sony Reader instead...?

And don't forget the Iliad is one the first of its type. I'm pretty sure there was some guy who bought a Model T Ford and was disappointed it didn't have power steering, air-con and an automatic gearbox...

[CommanderROR]

ripping HTML files apart into single pages is what I call inadequate handling of HTML...every PDA I know can do better than that with an ebook software...

The shell-script hack is OK, I said there was a way, but it's not as user-friendly as the PDF viewer or gnuchess...no "click and go" solution...

About the reading...well...you can of course read text...or look at pictures. But the long startup times and low battery life even now make it little different from earlier ebook readers that all failed due to similar issues. There is the eink advantage, but that could hardly go wrong now could it? eink is supposed to bring the ebook closer to the "real" book, the Sony Reader and the Hanlin V8 can do that, mainly due to the eink screen and the long battery life. The Sony also has the ebook store, something I'm still waiting for as an Iliad User.

i'd like to get a Sony Reader or something similar, but since they're not selling in Europe and the ebook store probably won't work for me either in Germany, there would be little advantage for me there.

What I'm hoping for is that somebody starts a "new" Iliad software that does something useful with all that Hardware potential.

The Firmware is improving, no doubt, but apart from the "last opened file" feature that got added in 2.8 I have seen little progress in making the Iliad a better ebook reader.
The Iliad could also be a great PDA or internet Tablet, but since not even the basic features like battery-life, File-Viewers and "smooth" navigation through the library (the search feature is a start at least) and menus have been included after a huge development time I'm not counting it and am now waiting for an alternative that makes it to Europe. I'm putting my hopes on Amazon, but who knows when they will come out with their Kindle (or something else) and when that will make it to Europe...

And as to your last argument...I am also not new to "beta" devices, but I'm used to seeing progress...and getting at least some of the features that were promised sometime down the road. It's possible that the Iliad will still be easy to use, comfortable and "paper-like" sometime, but I'd like to know when, especially since iRex has moved the official SDK (full release) once again...

I guess we'll never agree on this Jaed, but never mind, it doesn't mean we can't still get along just fine...on other topics...
I hope you'll be right and the Iliad will finally manage to fulfill at least part of our (OK, MY) requirements. Matthijs and his collegues are doing a good job, but the priorities of iRex are still a big mistery, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
In the meantime I'm using the Iliad every day and have already have finished about 15 books, so it DOES work...even though I often resent the inconvenience of having to boot and recharge a book...but I promised myself never to buy another paper-book when I bought the Iliad and so far I've stuck with that rule.

[firekat]

Hopefully we can get somewhere closer to the original release specs in the new year. Commander, I understand your angst. To use the old clich'e; "We are so close, yet so far".

I know that the iRex team is probably working hard on the further development of the device. What we don't know is if there is already advanced functionality that is implemented in some B2B version of the device that we don't know about.

[Pitchfork]

Ever since the Iliad arrived I have been seeing a lot of people complain about how different file formats are not handled "correctly" on the device, such as no page splitting in HTML or lack of text reflowing in PDF. I personally do not see this as a problem with the device firmware but as limitations in the file formats themselves. HTML was never designed to be viewed on such a device, and if the firmware tries to force this behaviour other problems will quickly emerge such as "Why are my pictures cut in half" or "The Iliad is a bad device because pages start mid paragraph" If I was an ebook device manufacturer, then this would be a can of worms that I would not like to open. Just do a print preview in you web browser and you will see the problem first hand.

Likewise the PDF format was intended to give an exact representation of what the author created, so if I send a document, for example a brochure, that i have created to a printing house i can be sure that what they print is exactly the same as what I created. PDF is perfect for this, and so it should be as this is what the format was designed for. Again if a device tries to break these rules, new unwanted problems will occur, and it will weaken the format.

One could possibly blame the the device makers of using currently popular formats, that never were intended to be viewed on the device, to sell units to the public, but if you were offered a device that only supported proprietary formats or perhaps XML with XSL-FO support then i am sure that you would give it a miss and choose one that offered PDF support, as these formats are relatively unknown.

What is needed is a new format that can give the visual experience of a PDF and the reflowing possibilities of HTML, instead of forcing the device manufaturers to force square pegs into round holes. (Please do not see this remark as an invitation to start one of those long winded idealogical discussions about commercial vs. open source ebook formats, DRM and the evil face of capitalism, because i don't care who ends up making the format or how much money they make from it, I just want a good reading experience, and do not mind paying for it.)

But hey this post ended up a bit longer that originally expected, suppose that I have being supressing these views for too long. Must visit my shrink tomorrow. :-)

[jæd]

Originally Posted by Pitchfork

What is needed is a new format that can give the visual experience of a PDF and the reflowing possibilities of HTML, instead of forcing the device manufaturers to force square pegs into round holes.

Yep, you've hit the nail on the head there... Personally I'm always surprised there hasn't been a chm reader ported to the Iliad (or even any other format)... It reformats itself to different device screens, has support for bookmarks/annotations and for hyperlinking...

Its also very convertable, and I've converted many reference books I use daily for the Iliad, but having a native reader would be handy. (It's one my todo list once the Iliad SDK is out, but thats really 'cos I'm so busy with other projects anyway...(

[CommanderROR]

@Pitchfork

I agree with you, at least in part, but since other devices can reflow PDF without problems and page-breaking in HTML also works just fine in other ereader software (or at least automatic conversion to that file-format via PC app) I don't really see this as an excuse.
Also, there are enough File-Formats around that would work like a charm with a little bit of work put into developing a viewer.
Mobipocket is one that comes to mind...it has a very nice set of features and it also offers DRM (although I don't really like that too much...but you can have mobipocket files without DRM) and a large ebook library (and Amazon support).
If that does not work (because mobipocket won't cooperate?) then I guess there are several popular and capable file-formats including .TXT (simple solution but with it's drawbacks) and of course .RTF and other text-only and text-and-image file formats.
Creating a new format and then making a "conversion" app available is also OK, but the current state is a bit cumbersome.

btw...support for the file-formats above (apart from mobipocket) is still in the Spec-sheet of the Iliad...so the good intentions were there...

[firekat]

jæd,

I have a been looking at different manners to invoke study flashcards and/or wiki style information format into the iLiad, see this thread: Flash Cards - The Study Variety & Wikis? I have just glimpsed over some of the help authoring programs/editors (.chm) out there. I would like to know more of your experiences with your .chm files as it represents a possible solution to the flashcard/wiki function. It might also be able to address on of my most important iLiad/ereader requirements - the biggest being bookmark support in PDF's.

Would it be possible to export a PDF file with bookmarks (bookmarks specifically, not links) into a .chm file and then export that to a html that the iLiad would support?

Also do you know of a good .chm/help file editor that is WYSIWYG and will allow embedding images that will work on the Windoze platform? One that could export to a html file (I think I might have seen some that have this capacity) could save a step. One program that is out there that is similar is Treepad. This is commercial, with a free version, it would be nice to find something that is open source. There are some "note taking" software out there that has similar characteristics.

Any help that you can tender would be greatly appreciated.


On a side note, I would think that a port of an ereader program that have been working on different PDA's would be great. For one the file sizes are relatively smaller (shorter load times?), they seem to support reflowing of text. They support bookmarks and links, and in some cases you can do your own highlighting and or other annotation. You can also in some cases put in your own links/bookmarks on the fly.

Admittedly this will again require using additional programs to convert different formats, something that seems an anathema to iRex's original intent to be able to natively view commonly used formats, (why RTF is not a part of this is beyond me - of course .chm would be nice as well!).

In any case, I will accept anything at this point as long as it works well & correctly and is not overwhelmingly time consuming.

I am trying to maintain my patience. I understand that all of this is not easy. I am hoping that this device will come to full fruit this year. I will attempt to maintain a sense of optimism to that end.

[jæd]

Originally Posted by firekat

Would it be possible to export a PDF file with bookmarks (bookmarks specifically, not links) into a .chm file and then export that to a html that the iLiad would support?

Have looked into this quickly tonight... Its one thing thats annoyed me for a while, especially since very few "free" pdf readers don't support bookmarks either. Might have a solution, but can't promise anything...

[RWood]

jaed: what chm converter are you using?

As for Adobe PDF format, their recent revision to the standard allows for tags to help in the reflowing of the document. At the moment it is only usable by some text-to-speech applications to ensure that the correct order is maintained. In the future it may also be able to restructure the document to other size screens.

[jæd]

Originally Posted by RWood

jaed: what chm converter are you using?

I'm using my own converter that converts to html or pdf... Its basically a perl wrapper around extract_chmLib...

Now that Irex have scribbles working I tend to use it for converting more to PDF than html...

[pdam]

For this type of device to sell well - about €250 max, closer to €200 would likely shift units. I disagree about the cost needing to be so high because of features (such as Wacom wifi etc - there is nothing that bumps the cost up to current retail levels other than lack of shifting units in volume.

It's not really about what technology it has built in - it's about what users are willing to pay for what it does, so anything above €250 would be too much for my (personal) wallet to open unless I had a really specific need for the device.

[RWood]

Thanks. I downloaded it and will try it out later.