Sony collections and release 0.7.5

[Sparkling]

If I understand correctly using option #2 you may still change collections manually - they are just not synced to the calibre library? If I've misunderstood please correct me and ignore the rest of my comment

As banjomike mentioned, option number 1 seems ineffective. As for me, it is VERY ineffective because I delete collections when I deem them useless; ex. "Pride & Prejudice" have the tags/collections: Fiction, Classics. When transferring to the device I use "Classics" if I have three or so more Classics books on device and so I delete "Fiction". Otherwise, if I have few Classics, I delete that collection and use "Fiction" instead. And so I keep my books easy to find without having hundreds of collections Having the deleted collections pop back again is more than a little troubling so alternative #2 is definitely preferable for me

[chaley]

Originally Posted by Sparkling

If I understand correctly using option #2 you may still change collections manually - they are just not synced to the calibre library? If I've misunderstood please correct me and ignore the rest of my comment

Yes, you may make changes manually. Neither option includes syncing back to the calibre library, but that doesn't change the validity of your arguments for option #2.

As banjomike mentioned, option number 1 seems ineffective. [...] Having the deleted collections pop back again is more than a little troubling so alternative #2 is definitely preferable for me

So far, 100% in favor of option 2.

[chaley]

Calibre 0.7.6 implements option 2.

[DoctorOhh]

Originally Posted by chaley

Calibre 0.7.6 implements option 2.

Judging from this post even updating the tags only on the first send can be traumatic.

I really wish the default for downloading tags was not to download tags and a person would have to check an obvious box to request the tags. I killed auto d/l of tags the day after it was added but many folk get over run and don't have a clue they can be turned off.

[chaley]

Originally Posted by dwanthny

Judging from this post even updating the tags only on the first send can be traumatic.

I really wish the default for downloading tags was not to download tags and a person would have to check an obvious box to request the tags. I killed auto d/l of tags the day after it was added but many folk get over run and don't have a clue they can be turned off.

That is a policy question for Kovid.

At this point, I wouldn't mind completely disabling calibre's collection features until you enter the first 14 digits of pi into a secret dialog box available by right-clicking six times on the tags button. And yes, I know I am being peevish.

[DoctorOhh]

Originally Posted by chaley

At this point, I wouldn't mind completely disabling calibre's collection features until you enter the first 14 digits of pi into a secret dialog box available by right-clicking six times on the tags button. And yes, I know I am being peevish.

From the first day I used calibre it created collections from "tags, series" by default. I think this is the way it should be. I think you have the behavior of tags, series, collections, cache etc the way it should be, it is a great improvement and I appreciate all of the work you put into it.

You have teased me with the thought of a genre type column that we can place any word(s) for each book that might be used to create collections. I'm hoping at some point after you get a chance to relax, that you'll catch a second wind and tackle this concept.

[Starson17]

Originally Posted by dwanthny

I really wish the default for downloading tags was not to download tags and a person would have to check an obvious box to request the tags. I killed auto d/l of tags the day after it was added but many folk get over run and don't have a clue they can be turned off.

OTOH, if the default was no tags, I'd have had no clue I could turn them on. By the time I'd figured out how to turn them on, I'd have needed to completely redo thousands of manual metadata fetch operations. I definitely prefer the current default.

If I might ask - there seem to be a lot of people with Sony readers that post here about having lost their collections. (poor Charles - he works his butt off creating wonderful free software for Calibre users, only to find that now he must spend most of his time dodging friendly fire from those same users.)

So my question: Don't Sony readers have some sort of backup procedure for the collections?

A related question: I could have sworn that for the Sony, Calibre has created collections from tags from day 1. Isn't that why most Sony users turn off the tags? If so, why is it that this is suddenly a problem for some users?

[itimpi]

Originally Posted by Starson17

A related question: I could have sworn that for the Sony, Calibre has created collections from tags from day 1. Isn't that why most Sony users turn off the tags? If so, why is it that this is suddenly a problem for some users?

This was true for books that were copied on using Calibre Send to Device, but not true if they were copied via another method. The problem was that the early 0.7.x series tried to match what was already there with the books in the Calibre library and then create Collections as if Calibre had been used to load all the books that were found.

[chaley]

@dwanthny & @Starson17: Thanks for the kind words. They are appreciated.

It isn't pleasant to get problem reports expressed in angry verbiage. I am not sure why, because none of the posts have been ad hominem, the design predates my time, and I can understand where the anger comes from. One must also recognize that 'finding' the problem wasn't pleasant for the reporter. In the end, getting reports, however they are expressed, is a precondition for dealing with them, so the value of (gain - frustration) is positive.

It is unfortunate, though, that some of the reporters suffered from problems that were already fixed.

@starson17:

A related question: I could have sworn that for the Sony, Calibre has created collections from tags from day 1. Isn't that why most Sony users turn off the tags? If so, why is it that this is suddenly a problem for some users?

The answer must be related to scale. In 0.7 before 0.7.6, calibre would recreate requested collections for books already on the device. Instead of finding him/herself with a lot of extra collections on one newly-sent book, they would be on all the books on the device. In 0.6 and before, people must have dealt with it by changing collections for the books they just sent. 0.7's insistence on following directions came as a rude and unwelcome surprise.

One reason I didn't anticipate the problems is my own usage pattern. From my beginning with calibre, I managed tags etc so that the Sony DB was automatically built as I wanted. In fact, I wanted (and still want) calibre to be *more* aggressive, rebuilding the Sony DB from metadata whenever I connect, without me needing to send any books. I am still trying to work out how to do that while maintaining the status quo for the manual types. I am considering making the new collections option tri-valued, where the third value tells calibre to manage upon connection.

Enough rumination.

[banjomike]

Originally Posted by Starson17

A related question: I could have sworn that for the Sony, Calibre has created collections from tags from day 1. Isn't that why most Sony users turn off the tags? If so, why is it that this is suddenly a problem for some users?

I have been using Calibre from before the very first time I plugged my PRS-505 into a USB. I used calibre to prepare books for the arrival of my Sony. Never used anything else, never installed Sony software, never (I'm pretty sure) copied files manually to the SD card. Despite this, the first time I fired up 0.7.2 with my Sony I found I had 90 collections instead of the 40 I had before.

I can understand why some people would find it annoying.

[DoctorOhh]

Originally Posted by Starson17

OTOH, if the default was no tags, I'd have had no clue I could turn them on. By the time I'd figured out how to turn them on, I'd have needed to completely redo thousands of manual metadata fetch operations. I definitely prefer the current default.

Good point, I agree with you, the current default should stay.

This might not be easily implemented, but it would be nice if a "Don't download tags" option was up front in the preferences. OTOH once someone discovers that there are options in one plugin they start exploring the other plugins and a world opens up to them.

Originally Posted by banjomike

I have been using Calibre from before the very first time I plugged my PRS-505 into a USB. I used calibre to prepare books for the arrival of my Sony. Never used anything else, never installed Sony software, never (I'm pretty sure) copied files manually to the SD card. Despite this, the first time I fired up 0.7.2 with my Sony I found I had 90 collections instead of the 40 I had before.

I fell in the same historic path you stated, always used calibre etc... But I didn't have one stray collection because I always had calibre create my collections from tags and series and never manually edited collections via calibre on my device. Lucky me.

@Chaley If I had helped beta test this I would have given it a green light because like you my usage wouldn't have revealed any problems.

Thanks again! The speed improvement was worth the temporary confusion.

[markbond1007]

Originally Posted by chaley

One reason I didn't anticipate the problems is my own usage pattern. From my beginning with calibre, I managed tags etc so that the Sony DB was automatically built as I wanted. In fact, I wanted (and still want) calibre to be *more* aggressive, rebuilding the Sony DB from metadata whenever I connect, without me needing to send any books. I am still trying to work out how to do that while maintaining the status quo for the manual types. I am considering making the new collections option tri-valued, where the third value tells calibre to manage upon connection.

Enough rumination.

Sounds like you use calibre the way I do, and this option/feature would be most appreciated, could you also consider doing something about the ordering of series/books on the device please. At the moment I have to remember to set Calibre to order by series before I transfer anything to my Sony, it would be more usefull to have an option on the device to say always use "this field" ordering to transfer books.

Thanks

Mark

[DoctorOhh]

Originally Posted by markbond1007

could you also consider doing something about the ordering of series/books on the device please. At the moment I have to remember to set Calibre to order by series before I transfer anything to my Sony, it would be more usefull to have an option on the device to say always use "this field" ordering to transfer books.

Chaley told me the other day that series should automatically sort on the device with out ordering ahead of time in calibre. He also said a book added later should fine its rightful place.

I haven't tried it yet, but according to the change log this was fixed in 0.6.53. Give it a try and see if it has changed from your past experience.

[chaley]

Originally Posted by markbond1007

could you also consider doing something about the ordering of series/books on the device please. At the moment I have to remember to set Calibre to order by series before I transfer anything to my Sony, it would be more usefull to have an option on the device to say always use "this field" ordering to transfer books.

Thanks for the comments.

Sorry, but I don't understand what it is you want, primarily because I think calibre already does it.

If calibre is permitted to use series metadata (the word 'series' appears in the "Build collections from" box in Sony device customization), then the series collections will always be sorted into series number order based on the series indices of the books. If this ordering is not happening, I want to know about it. I know of no way to tell calibre to sort a series other than by setting the collections field appropriately.

By popular demand, metadata on the device is now updated only when a book is sent. Thus, where the books end up and how they are sorted will be controlled by the values when the books were sent, not their current values. This can lead to confusion, but is a necessary consequence of the 'update metadata on send' choice.

If the new option is left checked, the book will not be deleted from previous series (one reason I will never leave the option checked ). If the option is unchecked, then the book will be removed from all collections before being added to collections specified by metadata. Update metadata on send is used in this case as well.

Is this not the behavior you are seeing?

Calibre currently sorts collections by title. Then, if the collection is a series, it sorts by series index, giving you title within index. Are you asking to change this behavior?

Thanks for any clarifications.

Regarding the 'feature', what I am considering, and will probably build if the performance issues reported by FizzyWater have been corrected, is to add a third option, update metadata on connect. The option will be tri-value, meaning that you will have the choice of manual management (as today), manage on send (as today), and manage on connect (the new choice). Having this option will ensure that for books identified as being in both the library and on the device, the metadata on the device will be consistent with the metadata in the library. Would you use it?

[banjomike]

Originally Posted by dwanthny

I fell in the same historic path you stated, always used calibre etc... But I didn't have one stray collection because I always had calibre create my collections from tags and series and never manually edited collections via calibre on my device. Lucky me.

That was the gist of my message. Always used Calibre but STILL had an extra bunch of collections after using 0.7.xx. It added "fiction" "HUB" "sf" "SF" when I already had Fiction, Hub, Science Fiction etc.