Arizonan restrictive law backfires

[happy_terd]

I believe that the cops can detain anyone if they commit an infraction or petty crime and do not have identification.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by obs20

Okay here's what's racist about it:
A stop is made because a tail light is out. Because the driver has an accent, or is brown, or dresses differently then he is asked for a passport or other documentation in addition to the driver's license to demonstrate that he is here legally. If it isn't produced then he could be detained. This person could be a naturalized citizen but now has to carry identification that other Americans do not. Even Arnold Schwarzenegger said his accent would get him detained in Arizona.

Did you know that a driver's license is adequate to prove residency? No, obviously you did not. Instead, you jumped to the conclusion that the cops in Arizona are racists.

Tell me, how long have you been in favor of breaking the law instead of enforcing it?

[Joebill]

Well, my feelings are that if smoeone wants to live under our laws, they should obey our laws.

If they had done that, the Arizona law would never have happened.

(tried to put my tired thoguhts together and mention something about my Comanche and Cherokee ancestry, but it was incoherent.)

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Did you know that a driver's license is adequate to prove residency? No, obviously you did not. Instead, you jumped to the conclusion that the cops in Arizona are racists.

Tell me, how long have you been in favor of breaking the law instead of enforcing it?

Then let's change things up a bit, a bunch of teenagers are standing around somewhere. They're dressed funny and listening to that stuff that passes for music. They're not speaking English because if my time in highschool was any indication it's wrong to use a language a passing person might understand so if you know another one, speak it whenever you can.

Then there's a lawful police encounter. I have those all the time, a cop drives up or walks up asks you if everything's okay often asks your name. This time they say papers please citizen. Since you're not required to carry ID and someone under 18 might not even have one to carry any of those kids with bown skin now has to worry about being detained even though they've broken no laws.

I'm also going to agree with the idea that no person can be illegal. The whole idea makes me really uncomfortable and the term suggests that such people are somehow less than the rest of us. They may very well have done something illegal but calling the person illegal has very uncomfortable civil rights implications in my mind. Law breakers still retain the basic rights of personhood.

[MJK2111]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

I'm also going to agree with the idea that no person can be illegal. The whole idea makes me really uncomfortable and the term suggests that such people are somehow less than the rest of us. They may very well have done something illegal but calling the person illegal has very uncomfortable civil rights implications in my mind. Law breakers still retain the basic rights of personhood.

Sorry that it makes you "uncomfortable", but the truth can sometimes do that to people. For far too long, we have tried to dance around the issue. Some claim that brown-skinned people are being taken advantage of, but the fact is, they are the predominant offenders. If it happened to be Chinese that illegally entered our country, we would be having the same discussion, but the people would be described differently.
I don't see how the term makes them "somehow less than the rest of us."; in the United States, criminals are criminals. As far as I know, we don't have criminals that have more or less rights than other criminals. We treat all law breakers equally, or at least we should.
It's really a very simple concept: enter the country legally and partake of great things the US has to offer. Enter the country illegally, and be treated accordingly...as the criminal you are.

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by MJK2111

Sorry that it makes you "uncomfortable", but the truth can sometimes do that to people. For far too long, we have tried to dance around the issue. Some claim that brown-skinned people are being taken advantage of, but the fact is, they are the predominant offenders. If it happened to be Chinese that illegally entered our country, we would be having the same discussion, but the people would be described differently.
I don't see how the term makes them "somehow less than the rest of us."; in the United States, criminals are criminals. As far as I know, we don't have criminals that have more or less rights than other criminals. We treat all law breakers equally, or at least we should.
It's really a very simple concept: enter the country legally and partake of great things the US has to offer. Enter the country illegally, and be treated accordingly...as the criminal you are.

Calling someone's acts illegal is different from calling someone illegal.

[obs20]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Did you know that a driver's license is adequate to prove residency? No, obviously you did not. Instead, you jumped to the conclusion that the cops in Arizona are racists.

Tell me, how long have you been in favor of breaking the law instead of enforcing it?

Not every state in the USA requires such proof. Maryland for one doesn't.
Americans often go around without ID if they are not driving. There is no law that requires this of a US citizen. I know this is hard fact for many to accept.

[obs20]

Here's a link which discusses the new law in an even handed way. What constitutes proof of identity is quite vague.

http://www.news-banner.com/index/news-app/story.16314

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by clarknova

IMHO, it's a tragic shame that you feel unashamed. On the other hand, if someone had said that to your ancestors when they immigrated here, I wouldn't have had to tell you this.

Maybe you have a point. If only I could time travel and keep those lousy Puritans from being kicked out of England, they wouldn't have brought their crazy religious beliefs to this land, and wouldn't have brought all those other crazy/poor Europeans with them.
I'd probably be Roman Catholic now, but that's a small price to pay to have some extended personal space in this here elevator.

You are continuing to make the exact same fallacious argument I was arguing against-- just because something happened one way, at one time, in one set of circumstances-- does not mean that circumstances never change. Rules that worked fine when this country was wide-open spaces with the majority of the natives safely genocided away do no necessary apply to a country that is crowded (the population of the whole Earth should be below the current population of the US) and in a state of economic collapse. I feel no obligation whatsoever that we should invite into the US everyone who has the slightest desire to be here-- and what people did 200 years ago is irrelevant.

[obs20]

Originally Posted by happy_terd

I believe that the cops can detain anyone if they commit an infraction or petty crime and do not have identification.

Yes they can but that's not what is at issue here. Most of us just get slapped with a summons and deal with it later but if your immigration status is questioned then, even if you are a US citizen, you will be detained. A driver's license in the case of many states is not enough.

This could lead to all of us having to carry a passport or national id card. If that's what you want then campaign for it.

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by Iphinome

Then let's change things up a bit, a bunch of teenagers are standing around somewhere. They're dressed funny and listening to that stuff that passes for music. They're not speaking English because if my time in highschool was any indication it's wrong to use a language a passing person might understand so if you know another one, speak it whenever you can.

Then there's a lawful police encounter. I have those all the time, a cop drives up or walks up asks you if everything's okay often asks your name. This time they say papers please citizen. Since you're not required to carry ID and someone under 18 might not even have one to carry any of those kids with bown skin now has to worry about being detained even though they've broken no laws.

I'm also going to agree with the idea that no person can be illegal. The whole idea makes me really uncomfortable and the term suggests that such people are somehow less than the rest of us. They may very well have done something illegal but calling the person illegal has very uncomfortable civil rights implications in my mind. Law breakers still retain the basic rights of personhood.

what on earth are you doing that inspires such frequent law enforcement contact?

Originally Posted by obs20

Not every state in the USA requires such proof. Maryland for one doesn't.
Americans often go around without ID if they are not driving. There is no law that requires this of a US citizen. I know this is hard fact for many to accept.

are you sure about this? I believe everywhere has the ability to charge for vagrancy, and the key to not being charged is having ID

Originally Posted by obs20

Yes they can but that's not what is at issue here. Most of us just get slapped with a summons and deal with it later but if your immigration status is questioned then, even if you are a US citizen, you will be detained. A driver's license in the case of many states is not enough.

This could lead to all of us having to carry a passport or national id card. If that's what you want then campaign for it.

see above

[obs20]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

are you sure about this? I believe everywhere has the ability to charge for vagrancy, and the key to not being charged is having ID



see above

That's exactly the point. The vagrancy laws in the USA have often targeted minorities.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/vagrancy

[Iphinome]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

what on earth are you doing that inspires such frequent law enforcement contact?

Nothing, Police don't only approach you if they think you're doing something wrong. I've been stopped because they were going around looking for someone nearby who spoke a language they didn't to translate for them. I've been stopped to ask if I've seen anything unusual, I've been stopped just to ask if I was okay because I was out late and alone. They can approach you for any or no reason just to see your reaction.

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

are you sure about this? I believe everywhere has the ability to charge for vagrancy, and the key to not being charged is having ID

There's no requirement to carry identification in public if you're a US citizen. There's a requirement to have a license to drive on public roads but that's not the same thing.

[Logseman]

(the population of the whole Earth should be below the current population of the US)

Shall we start the selection then?

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Logseman

Shall we start the selection then?

We should use the mathematician's method: shoot every second person. (For once being a rather odd person is a good thing.)