Jobs speaks up about Flash

[rock]

Originally Posted by dmaul111478

Yeah, the key question is whether Flash kills battery any faster than other types of streaming video software. If it does (and it's a MAJOR difference), then it's a fair point. If not, then it's kind of moot.

But we may never really know. (meaning on iPod, iPhone, iPad)

Honestly I don't know I usually do not see a difference when I run flash on my netbook with battery life over other tasks.

All I am saying is his arguments are pretty weak if he is trying to sway people. It will work on casual people, but not people who work in IT or follow it.

But really to most casual people all you have to say is you can't play farmville, and you just convince them not to buy it lol.

[Trubu]

Originally Posted by rock

Saw this after I posted.

but the flash kills battery life, no ANYTHING that uses resources kiling battery life.

It's a question of how efficiently resources are being used. Historically, Flash has been a notorious resource hog, particularly on OS X. Playing Netflix video with the Silverlight plugin on a MacBook isn't nearly as resource-intensive as playing back a Hulu video.

[Trubu]

Originally Posted by rock

All I am saying is his arguments are pretty weak if he is trying to sway people. It will work on casual people, but not people who work in IT or follow it.

But really to most casual people all you have to say is you can't play farmville, and you just convince them not to buy it lol.

Except there's a Farmville app coming.

BTW I work in IT. I think Jobs' arguments are defensible, even if I don't agree 100% with all of them.

[rock]

Originally Posted by scottjl

consider yourself lucky if a plugin has never brought down your computer. i've had plugins (not just Flash) bring down Windows XP, Windows 7, and the Mac OS. and I've had them bring down browsers, including Chrome (which is my current favorite) even more frequently. the only OS i can say that hasn't been brought to its knees by a plugin has been Linux. The browser may bomb out, but the OS is rock solid.

Because Linux is a beast lol.

But seriously I think it is because the plug-ins for linux are thoroughly tested before they are released. It is a shame more people do not use Linux, but they are making it more user friendly with each release. I just took Linux off my netbook recently just because I was impressed with 7 and was using it less. I still have a PC with Linux though.

[rock]

Originally Posted by Trubu

Except there's a Farmville app coming.

BTW I work in IT. I think Jobs' arguments are defensible, even if I don't agree 100% with all of them.

I work in IT as well.

I do too I just think he could have done a LOT better.

[Trubu]

Originally Posted by rock

I know there is some HTML5 being used but it isn't going to take over the internet for a few years.

Again, who is saying HTML5 is going to take over the Internet right now? It will co-exist with other technologies like Flash for quite a while to come. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea to support it - tech companies that look to the future rather than the past are tech companies that are more likely to still be here when the future arrives.

If tech companies followed the advice of some of you, RealPlayer would still be ubiquitous and blinky text would be a web standard.

[rock]

Originally Posted by Trubu

Again, who is saying HTML5 is going to take over the Internet right now? It will co-exist with other technologies like Flash for quite a while to come. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea to support it - tech companies that look to the future rather than the past are tech companies that are more likely to still be here when the future arrives.

If tech companies followed the advice of some of you, RealPlayer would still be ubiquitous and blinky text would be a web standard.

Jobs is. That is why I am saying it is a weak argument. he keeps throwing up HTML5 when it is not even that widespread. I don't want to say percentages without really knowing, but I would assume it has to be really small.

I am not saying it is a bad idea, but when your first point against flash is HTML5, it is moot, as it is not even a big factor right now. We all know there is going to an iPad 2.0 by christmas (with camera!), so I just think it is a weak argument, that is what I am saying. I agree with future support, but people are talking about the here and now, and the flash thing is putting off a lot of people.

Me, if there is an app for it, I don't care. Once I heard the Netflix finally came out with an app, it made me kind of want to get one (although I heard it can be sluggish).

[dmaul111478]

Originally Posted by Trubu

Again, who is saying HTML5 is going to take over the Internet right now? It will co-exist with other technologies like Flash for quite a while to come. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea to support it - tech companies that look to the future rather than the past are tech companies that are more likely to still be here when the future arrives.

Oh it's great that they support HTML5 for sure.

It's just of no use to people who want an iPad right now but want all their video sites, online games etc. to work.

So saying they support HTML5 now does nothing to help those folk right now. Down the road it may make lack of Flash a moot point, but it doesn't do a lot to remedy the situation for people interested in the iPad currently who frequent Flash heavy sites.

They don't care about HTML5 and the other stuff Jobs talks about. They care about their video sites not working, their Facebook games not working, some sites they frequent not displaying properly etc.

[Trubu]

Originally Posted by dmaul111478

So saying they support HTML5 now does nothing to help those folk right now. Down the road it may make lack of Flash a moot point

In terms of video, I think that point is coming much sooner than later. Look at the rash of announcements from sites starting to offer HTML5 video around the time of the iPad launch. Facebook just started offering H264 streaming for iPhone OS devices. I think within the next 6 months lack of Flash will cease to mean much of anything for iDevice users who want to watch video.

Games are a different story; if there's a Flash game that's incredibly compelling and you can't find a version of it (or a close analog) in the App Store, I guess you're out of luck.

For sites that simply don't function without Flash and don't have a fallback, ditto. (Though I'd suggest contacting the site owners and tell them that They're Doin It Wrong.)

[dmaul111478]

Fair enough. Like I say, down the road it may be a moot point. Maybe by the time the 2nd gen or 3rd Gen iPad enough sites will have switched that it doesn't matter.

Right now if I wanted a tablet for a lot of web browsing, the iPad would be out as I'd want all the sites I frequent to just work like they do on my laptops and desktops. I'm not writing sites to change, they work fine on my laptops and desktops, I'd want them to work fine on my tablet as well.

That said, I'm just playing Devil's advocate as lack of flash isn't a deal breaker for me. Porn is the main drawback, as it would be nice to have an Apple device for that to avoid all the viruses and spyware that are near unavoidable on PCs.

[Trubu]

Originally Posted by dmaul111478

I'm not writing sites to change, they work fine on my laptops and desktops, I'd want them to work fine on my tablet as well.

I get that's probably the attitude of most end users, but really, if a site depends on a plugin (whether it's Flash or something else) to deliver their content and they have no fallback, they deserve to be called on the carpet for it. If I can code around the myriad of CSS bugs in IE6, even though it's dropped into single-digit marketshare, you can find a way of making as much of your content as possible viewable without a plugin. {/soapbox}

[dmaul111478]

I do agree. But as a non IT person/non-Tech Head, at the end of the day I just want my gadgets to "just work."

That's been Apples big tag line of the years, but I feel like they're getting away from it with stuff like lacking flash support, the complicated methods of getting documents like PDFs onto the iPad and into multiple PDF reader programs etc.

[Trubu]

Originally Posted by dmaul111478

That's been Apples big tag line of the years, but I feel like they're getting away from it with stuff like lacking flash support, the complicated methods of getting documents like PDFs onto the iPad and into multiple PDF reader programs etc.

I agree on file management. I don't need an open filesystem, but they really need to implement a Shared Documents folder that's accessible system-wide, just like the Photos app. The current functionality in the 3.2 OS is close, but still too clunky and dependent on developers implementing it.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Trubu

I agree on file management. I don't need an open filesystem, but they really need to implement a Shared Documents folder that's accessible system-wide, just like the Photos app. The current functionality in the 3.2 OS is close, but still too clunky and dependent on developers implementing it.

Yeah I could possibly deal with that type of shared folder if it became the norm in all apps.

But I'd still really prefer an open file system. I have 100s of pdfs of academic research articles arranged in folders and sub folders on my PC by topic etc.

I'd love to have an open file system on my table so I could just have the exact same system on there.

Currently with a bit of work I could get that same file structure in place in Goodreader. But that doesn't help when I want to open one in iAnnotate to mark up, or if I find a better reader app down the road etc. And it's more time consuming that just being able to drag the main folder over and have the file system left in tact.

[scottjl]

Ars Technica weighs in on Job's letter and also has a poll. Apparently 52% (as of this moment) of those who responded believe Jobs makes valid points and is in his rights to block Flash on the iDevice platform. 22% believe he's in the wrong.