Seriously thoughtful Electric Cars : BYD

[GeoffC]

they don't go where I want to go ....

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

they don't go where I want to go ....

Welcome to the real world. Petroleum burning automobiles are the most flexible way to travel, you can leave when you like, got where you like and drive as long as you like, with less than 5 minutes downtime to refuel. And you can usually go 600 Kms per fueling.

Brickbat away, I'm about to get into my gas-burner and go shopping....

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

We pay a high price for personal flexibility, convenience and time-saving. That price is getting higher every day, while flexibility, convenience and time-saving aren't improving... in some cases, they are getting worse. Sooner or later, a lot more people will end up saying "#^@&-- it's not worth this."

More people than like to admit it can make changes to their lives that include public trans, including trains and buses, if they want to. If, someday, they find that they can't (or won't) drive themselves wherever and whenever they want to, they usually discover that public trans can get them where they need to go in most cases. Then cars can be used sparingly for the other things. I've been in this situation numerous times in my life, and it's almost never the big deal that people tend to think it will be.

(Jordan's Theorem applies here: You get used to what you want to get used to.)

I expect that electric cars won't be as convenient as gas-powered cars, just as the commuter train isn't as convenient as my car. However, I'm willing to give up on a few conveniences in the name of a more practical way of life. I expect I'll have to eventually, whether I want to or not... why not just get used to the idea and do it? I expect electric cars to be part of that. I hope trains will be, too, if this country will get off its collective @$$ and start rebuilding the rail system.

[Lady Blue]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

diesel/petrol, it still has the same source - and like it or not, it will run out (after it gets too expensive, of course). this is the time that should be spent on designing viable alternatives, instead of burying ones heads in the sand and hoping it'll go away.

significantly reducing air travel would likely extend the life of the diesel/petrol car, because i cannot see any sensible replacement for powering jet/prop aircraft. roll on Zeppelins into our future - slow, maybe.

now is the ideal time to invest for the future....

Speaking of air travel ... I've always thought it irresponsible and wasteful for airlines to have such schedules that a plane flies cross country or halfway around the world even when it's less than half full with passengers, just so they can boast they have 20 scheduled flights per day from N.Y. to Paris, or some such rubbish.

More often than not (with few exceptions) no one needs to get anywhere SO quickly that they can't wait another few hours to depart if it means the plane will be full and thus the flight more cost effective. If the number of available flights was reduced, I'm sure we'd all adjust our own plans and schedules, whether for business or pleasure, to make do with that.

Everyone complains about people driviing big trucks and SUVs with only 1 or 2 occupants, getting lower gas mileage, etc., etc., and I'm not saying I disagree. But then why are we not just as appalled with less than half full flights taking off every 10 minutes around the globe, gobbling up expensive jet fuel, spewing putrid exhaust, and often needing to circle an airport many times before landing (thus wasting more fuel) because of a backlog of planes trying to land at the same time caused by a hiccup in the process somewhere along the way.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

You're right, LB, it's very wasteful and irresponsible. On the other hand, so is driving a 4-seat gas guzzler from point A to point B without taking 2-3 passengers with you... or not taking a bus that goes to the same place. It's all wasteful and irresponsible.

At least the airlines are beginning to cut back on flights, to remove those half-full airliners, but only because their cost to fly them overrides the passenger's desire to fly when they want... not because of practicality or convenience, because of cost. In that light, I'm all for fewer flights... though the incredibly-cramped seats are beginning to force me away from flying when I have a choice.

I expect that eventually, just as the airlines have had to respond to their operational costs--many of which are imposed upon them by outside forces, fuel costs, taxes, etc--more and more car drivers will have to make those unpopular decisions because of rising fuel costs, taxes, and changing regulations and laws, and replace their cars with more efficient models, public trans, or something else altogether.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Even swiching to diesel rather than petrol would help a great deal. My diesel Mini, for example, does 80-odd mpg on the motorway, compared with about 50 mpg for the hybrid Prius. I was surprised to discover recently that diesel cars are apparently illegal in some parts of the US! About a third of cars in Europe are diesel, and the proportion is growing, because they are so much more economical.

They may be more efficient, but the price of diesel fuel in the US is significanly higher than the price of gasoline. They have to be more efficient to break even economically.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

There are more. They're called "electric sockets."

That, of course assumes that you house wiring is adequate for the job. I my case; I live in a 50 year old converted plantation house. The wiring was never adequate, even when the house was new and electrical loads low. It would take a major renovation/upgrade to even begin to recharge an electric vehicle.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by wodin

That, of course assumes that you house wiring is adequate for the job. I my case; I live in a 50 year old converted plantation house. The wiring was never adequate, even when the house was new and electrical loads low. It would take a major renovation/upgrade to even begin to recharge an electric vehicle.

Well, when compared to the cost of a new car ($20,000 and up), the renovations (could be less than a grand... even less than $500, depending on the situation) wouldn't be as significant a cost for most. Obviously, some homes and some locations will have different upgrade issues. But any home in the U.S. that can run a washer and dryer should be able to charge an electric car. Remember, a slow-charge doesn't usually require such a heavy load as to put a severe strain on existing electrical lines.

Today's reality is that an electric car buyer will probably have to have an electrician come in to place a properly-code charge box in a location accessible by the car, such as a garage or a box by the parking area. Many electric car sellers already help this process along, and some throw it into the cost of the car (or make it part of the loan to buy the car).

Hopefully in the future, more homes will come with such wiring standard (maybe without the actual charging box), and some cars will be able to charge off of standard wiring systems. There will probably be add-on systems available as well, perhaps charged off of alternative sources like wind and solar, and if you have a bit of property, it could be run independently of your house system.

The real issue is how to provide those systems for people in high-density areas, many of whom do not have dedicated parking options. This is why a standardized charging system, simple enough to be wired into any existing parking spot, is needed.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Well, when compared to the cost of a new car ($20,000 and up), the renovations (could be less than a grand... even less than $500, depending on the situation) wouldn't be as significant a cost for most.

Not really, in my case the entire electrical system would have to be gutted and replaced as none of it is to code. With the price of licensed electricians, that would perhaps double the price of the car.

Yes, I know, it should be done in any case, but I don’t own the house. I’m not about to dump huge sums into it for renovations.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by wodin

Not really, in my case the entire electrical system would have to be gutted and replaced as none of it is to code. With the price of licensed electricians, that would perhaps double the price of the car.

Yes, I know, it should be done in any case, but I don’t own the house. I’m not about to dump huge sums into it for renovations.

Far be it from me to suggest you move in order to be able to use an electric car... though certainly people have moved for less. At any rate, your situation is not common in those regions where electric cars would really benefit the populace--major cities and surrounding suburbs, primarily.

If, in conversion of a national system to electric vehicles, a small percentage of people still drove gas-powered vehicles, I daresay we'd still be much better off than making no change at all. And we can still look forward to improved electrical systems, batteries, charging systems, etc, to make this burden even lighter.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

At any rate, your situation is not common in those regions where electric cars would really benefit the populace--major cities and surrounding suburbs, primarily.

Excuse me, but Honolulu IS a "major city", and I live in a "surrounding suburb" of Honolulu. My typical commute is five miles one way, and an electric vehicle would be imminently practical for me.

The truth is that Hawaii was a US territory until 60 years ago, and building codes were nearly nonexistent, and those in place were largely ignored until well into the eighties. There are a very many private homes here where the codes are grandfathered, and the electrical, plumbing and framing are woefully inadequate.

And if I moved, it would probably be to somewhere that had a 20 mile/1 hour commute. How could that save anyting either ecologically or economically?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by wodin

Excuse me, but Honolulu IS a "major city", and I live in a "surrounding suburb" of Honolulu. My typical commute is five miles one way, and an electric vehicle would be imminently practical for me.

The truth is that Hawaii was a US territory until 60 years ago, and building codes were nearly nonexistent, and those in place were largely ignored until well into the eighties. There are a very many private homes here where the codes are grandfathered, and the electrical, plumbing and framing are woefully inadequate.

And if I moved, it would probably be to somewhere that had a 20 mile/1 hour commute. How could that save anyting either ecologically or economically?

Wodin, you're dealing with the "urban island/perfect world" mindset. Non-standard houses, long distances between urban centers, rural needs, are just problems to be glossed over.

In it's most virulent form, it's called the "bubble baby" syndrome. People raised in an affluent urban environment (the 'bubble"), whose idea of travel is go from one urban "bubble" to the airport; fly to another city, then take a cab to another affluent urban environment. (Or to a "resort area" with all the urban amenities.) The rest of the area they bypass is "flyover country" of benighted people who just don't get it - if they did, they go live in the "urban island/perfect world" like everybody else...

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by wodin

They may be more efficient, but the price of diesel fuel in the US is significanly higher than the price of gasoline. They have to be more efficient to break even economically.

I suspect the price differential is a taxation issue. I don't believe that diesel is inherently more expensive to produce than petrol. They are generally the same price (to within a penny a litre) here.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I suspect the price differential is a taxation issue. I don't believe that diesel is inherently more expensive to produce than petrol. They are generally the same price (to within a penny a litre) here.

It's a lot cheaper here... petrol is €1,59/l, diesel is €1,24/l (LPG is €0,70/l). But the taxation on the car is more expensive. First, diesel cars are generally heavier and thus have a higher tax and they pay more tax because they're diesel cars.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by wodin

Excuse me, but Honolulu IS a "major city", and I live in a "surrounding suburb" of Honolulu. My typical commute is five miles one way, and an electric vehicle would be imminently practical for me.

Are you saying that the suburbs of Honolulu are full of pretty much nothing but barely-renovated plantation houses with sub-standard wiring? Because that is what I am saying is atypical of most major cities in the U.S., whose suburbs tend to be filled with row houses, bungaloes, garden apartments and medium-to-large size single-family homes of more recent vintage.

The fact that you have a 5-minute commute is also atypical of such cities.

I realize Hawaii has conditions that tend to be different from those in the mainland (as do Alaska and other U.S. territories). That's why I've been stressing that these electric car possibilities apply, not to all, but to the majority of cases. There will always be those who cannot take advantage of the same possibilities, or not in the same way... you are clearly one of those.

That doesn't mean there isn't another way for you to manage it, either with some ingenuity, some cash, or a move to a place that better suits your needs--if, indeed, an electric car is an important enough need to warrant any of those actions--which is wholly up to you.