What is wrong with the Iliad's power-saving?

[svieira]

Unfortunatelly that is what usually happens. A sad story is the first sharp zaurus. It can run a 2.6 kernel, but the sd slot was developed by sharp and it is still closed (therefore enforcing the openzaurus releases to come with a 2.4 kernel and a propertary precompiled module).

As for the Librie, I still consider it as closed. And I give thanks that I can at least use it. Not to mention that strange format they use. But it serves me well. I can take it anywhere, it has screen protection, it is small and it does not drain the batteries.

We should also remember that the Librie is quite an old device. For a new one I would have hoped a 2.6 kernel would be used. But I would also have hoped the irex guys to submit patches with bug fixes for the opensource software they have modified... And that is something that I am not aware off.

If irex would have started as Nokia did, with a buggy device (N770) but giving a strong emphasis in development, while keeping some of the core applications closed, then I am sure things would be much different.

[TadW]

Originally Posted by svieira

We should also remember that the Librie is quite an old device. For a new one I would have hoped a 2.6 kernel would be used. But I would also have hoped the irex guys to submit patches with bug fixes for the opensource software they have modified... And that is something that I am not aware off.

They promised to releases the sources... some time. From what I understood, the main problem iRex folks have with going open-source, such as Nokia did with the 770, is that they cannot convince the publishers that their content is save. You know, the old story... security through obscurity.

[b_k]

Originally Posted by TadW

They promised to releases the sources... some time. From what I understood, the main problem iRex folks have with going open-source, such as Nokia did with the 770, is that they cannot convince the publishers that their content is save. You know, the old story... security through obscurity.

Do you think they realise that this won't work for infinite time, especially on a open-source/GPL system? They are required to release the sources, at least to the kernel and everything thats linked against a GPL library.
And as we all know, GPL-violations had a lot of success stories in it's not all to long history.



edit:
I like the closing of this paragaph at gpl-violations.org:

Won't this GPL stuff cost me a lot ?
...
It will only cost you a lot if you set out to violate the license.

[svieira]

What Nokia did was to go straight for Opensource (with scratchbox-maemo). However the set of applications they considered core were not published (opera, news app, radio and media player come to my mind). If Irex has done a proper implementation of the software then they should have a clear division betwen what is open and what is not and do what Nokia did

Not to mention that modules do not have to be open.

With those two arguments in mind they could have done something secure but that complies to GPL.

What I still do not have very clear is...

When they release the source... Will they release the source of all the versions they have produced or just only the last one?

If they clearly violate GPL (and admit it)... Why are they making us wait? They should release what they have soon.

[scotty1024]

From what I've seen they've written very little original code of their own, nearly everything is open source. Which should make most all the key parts of the platform available when they publish the source.

The Librie has its own quirky little windowing system (not X) and they wrote their own book format w/ DRM and their own navigation app. Very little of the key system features were cobbled together off open source.

[ali]

Originally Posted by b_k

They are required to release the sources, at least to the kernel and everything thats linked against a GPL library.

Which is why most libraries are released under the LGPL, which allows linking from commercial closed-source software. So they don't need to publish the sources of, say, pageBar, if it just links to Xlib and gtk.

[b_k]

Originally Posted by ali

Which is why most libraries are released under the LGPL, which allows linking from commercial closed-source software. So they don't need to publish the sources of, say, pageBar, if it just links to Xlib and gtk.

Would have no problem with that. I'm not a evangelist crying to want to have everything covered by GPL.
I was thinking of the base system, not the iRex add-ons.

[arivero]

pdf and html browsers are, I think, not just libraries but heavily patched forks of the original minimo and xpdf. I could be wrong about minimo.

[CommanderROR]

I know there are many very informed people on these forums...so...I've got a question for you...

I own a PocketPC, it's an old one, I got it for 40€ at a closing down sale. It is named "Yakumo Delta 300 GPS" and is basically a pretty meidocre PDA with a not-too-good GPS added in.
I used this device as an interim reading device to get used to reading ebooks instead of paper-books before the launch of the Iliad.

Now, let's get to the question...

This PocketPC can do something quite amazing...If I read a book, it saves the last-seen page. This is something the Iliad can do as well. My Pocket PC however can display the last-viewed page if I switch the device off and on again. Switching the device on takes roughly 1 second (from all-off to last-displayed-page).
If I switch the device off (or let it turn itself off) and just leave it lying htere, the battery will slowly degrad, but it takes about 4 weeks to go completely flat.

The real question is...can this be done with Linux as well? The Processor is the same type as the one the Iliad uses (but it's only 300Mhz if I remember correctly). I used an SD card for my books with the PDA.

The reason I ask is, that if this is possible with a linux device, then I'd ask iRex to do the following:

Add a little switch in the "Settings" menu that let's us decide which boot-mode the Iliad uses.

Give us Normal and Book mode.

In Normal mode, do what you do at the moment.
In book-mode don't load network, wifi, Wacom and whatever else is non-essential.
Activate Quick-Suspend (page-load complete, power off or suspend to RAM, whatever the PDA does). As soon as the PageBar is used, power-up, flip page, power down.
If there is no Hardware Limitation in the Iliad, this would give us about 3-4 weeks of "Standby" and a lot of pageturns in reading mode...

This would be an interim solution until iRex manages to get the PowerSaving working under regular conditions.

Now, tell me if/how this would be possible for a Linux device or what kind of problems there are that Linux has and Windows Mobile doesn't...
Thanks.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by CommanderROR

This PocketPC can do something quite amazing...If I read a book, it saves the last-seen page. This is something the Iliad can do as well. My Pocket PC however can display the last-viewed page if I switch the device off and on again. Switching the device on takes roughly 1 second (from all-off to last-displayed-page).
If I switch the device off (or let it turn itself off) and just leave it lying htere, the battery will slowly degrad, but it takes about 4 weeks to go completely flat.

It wasn't "off". It was suspended. There's a big difference.

Originally Posted by CommanderROR

The real question is...can this be done with Linux as well? The Processor is the same type as the one the Iliad uses (but it's only 300Mhz if I remember correctly). I used an SD card for my books with the PDA.

Yes. My Zaurus SL-C760 does this. The "power" button suspends the system when pressed, powering off the screen, remembering the memory state and powering down the procesor.

Originally Posted by CommanderROR

The reason I ask is, that if this is possible with a linux device, then I'd ask iRex to do the following:

But we aren't supposed to need to do this. The iLiad, being a single use device, should suspend when not in use for a period of time. A button pressing event should "wake" it.

From experience with many devices, I can tell you that the LCD and backlight use up the vast majority (and I mean VAST - like 75%+) of the power of the battery. eInk devices do not have an LCD and backlight and, so, the only power savings left are the processor and any peripherials.

Originally Posted by CommanderROR

In book-mode don't load network, wifi, Wacom and whatever else is non-essential.

Heck, I'd like the ability to just turn these off and leave them off.

Originally Posted by CommanderROR

Activate Quick-Suspend (page-load complete, power off or suspend to RAM, whatever the PDA does). As soon as the PageBar is used, power-up, flip page, power down.
If there is no Hardware Limitation in the Iliad, this would give us about 3-4 weeks of "Standby" and a lot of pageturns in reading mode...

I believe that if iRex knew how to do this, they would have done it already. This is what I would expect in an eBook reader.

Originally Posted by CommanderROR

Now, tell me if/how this would be possible for a Linux device or what kind of problems there are that Linux has and Windows Mobile doesn't...

As I said, there should be no issues with this. My Zaurus, running Linux, already does this (more or less).

[b_k]

What your PPC does is called "suspend-to-ram" (shutting off everything except the RAM and supporting circuits). If the iLiad would be able to do that, it could go to STR after switching the page, using the advantage of e-ink displays to keep the content without needing energy.

This is not a problem of using a Linux OS. But I think, like with normal PCs you are driver-wise better off with Windows, simply cause the hardware vendors or MIcrosoft provide you with drivers. Since I'm not into embedded Windows or Linux, I can't really say what the situation is there, just speculation.

Just take a Sharp Zaurus or a Siemens SIMPad (running OpenSIMPad), both are running linux, have a touchscreen and do suspend-to-ram. The iLiad however seems to have some hardware that doesn't make it easy to implement this, but I would not think it is totally impossible. I don't want to repeat it ever and ever but we all know that someone from iRex already mentioned in their forum that they have trouble with some of the hardware components.

Also your idea with the 2 boot options is probably not impossible, however it would need to be implemented. Most embedded devices have only one boot mode or something like "reset-to-factory" by pressing one button at boot-up.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by CommanderROR

If I switch the device off (or let it turn itself off) and just leave it lying htere, the battery will slowly degrad, but it takes about 4 weeks to go completely flat.

The real question is...can this be done with Linux as well?

The (Linux-using) Sony Reader is a good arguement that it can be done, CommanderROR, or at least pretty close. It goes from "off" (a PDA like suspend state) to "back where you were" in ~4 seconds.

We won't have final word on the power management 'till folks have had them long enough to tell that, but the battery meter didn't budge after about 5 hours of pretty hard usage. I gather that 5 hours of non-usage puts the iLiad down to about 38% charge? Clearly it isn't the OS that's the problem there.

[deadite66]

the wifi and wacom be turned off when not being used, what else is left to suspend cpu, memory cards support?

[scotty1024]

When it comes to start up performance one of the first things I want to look at is how iRex has the MSystem's Disk On Chip setup.

This devices seems to be running in a very incredibly slow mode of operation. Minimo , xpdf and the system boot take simply ages to load into RAM off the MSystem's device.

They've already admitted on their forum to running the iLiad in USB 1.1 1.1Mbps mode instead of 11Mbps mode, to make it more "stable". I'm wondering if they've hamstrung main storage in a similar means e.g. turned down the speed to make it more stable as well.

I've never seen Linux take so long to boot from FLASH.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by scotty1024

I've never seen Linux take so long to boot from FLASH.

My Zaurus takes longer to boot up and everything on that is in Flash. Note that's a boot from a shutdown, not a suspend.