iLiad MP3 Player - Page 2

DHer · 08-02-2006, 12:46 PM

yeah, for sharing disappointments the Iliad subforum is just the right place.

Have you considered participating in the official meditation thread?

Alexander Turcic · 08-02-2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHer

Have you considered participating in the official meditation thread?

How could I have forgotten!

firekat · 08-02-2006, 01:09 PM

I am not a hacker but I can certainly understand the frustration of people with these skills. In some aspects the concept and implementation of programmable electronic device manufacture and marketing is still in it's infancy.

The point is that most hackers/programmers see a new device as a blank chalkboard/whiteboard and an opportunity to use the tools that they have to get what they want out of the new device. It seems that they see manufacturers of these devices as just toolmakers, facilitating what they want to do with the device. The manufacturers want to control all access to the device. They don't want to be thought of as just a hardware supplier. They see opening up the device to further functionality as a potential loss of revenue. A hacker could come up with functionality that was not thought of by the manufacturer and sell it. I don't see this happening in this small community here on mobileread but on the outside world it is completely different, hence companies are very guarded in what they will do with their devices and just how open they will be with it.

A tool manufacturer sells you a screwdriver. They want you to use it only as a screwdriver. They don't want you to use it as a chisel, scraper, driftpin, alignment tool, prybar, etc. They want you to purchase all those tools, not just the screwdriver.

Look at the way that Apple has hobbled their devices. If you want something or some further functionality from them you either give up or wait until they build another one that will satisfy your needs/desires. It is their branding. They make you want/need it, tell you how happy you will be with it, and then when you want a little more they tell you that you don't really and are going against the group and how superior their product is inspite of it's shortcomings. One thing that I do have to give them is that their stuff usually works - without fault. You just can't do anything with it other than what they will allow you to.

I can commiserate with the frustration. I am trying to maintain a positive "glass is half full" attitude. But at times I can get pessimistic, think that iRex is just going to dump this thing as is, and will either sell the company off or just give up.

We are not a very patient lot. We all want it NOW!!! After all we did get iRex to pre-release this device contrary to their initial plans. We did get very upset with their lack of communication or a percieved sense of miscommunication. In the end they do appear to be working with us - to a certain extent and to whatever degree they desire. The thing is it will all take time.

The sliding release times of the other e-ink devices tells me that there is more to these devices than what might initially meet the eye.

C'est la Vie! (Excuse me if I spelled this wrong)

I am hoping that it will all work out in the end - I just want it RIGHT NOW!

Maybe we need to start another meditation thread?

P.S. As I was penning this after I finished I noted the subsequent references to the meditation thread. Boy things move fast here!

R2D2 · 08-02-2006, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firekat

Maybe we need to start another meditation thread?

I just checked: There is plenty of positive energy left in the current meditation thread. So no need to start a new one. ;-)

jæd · 08-02-2006, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firekat

They see opening up the device to further functionality as a potential loss of revenue.

...

A tool manufacturer sells you a screwdriver. They want you to use it only as a screwdriver. They don't want you to use it as a chisel, scraper, driftpin, alignment tool, prybar, etc. They want you to purchase all those tools, not just the screwdriver.

Irex have already said they will supply a SDK to developers... They've even moved the release of the SDK forward... What more do you want...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by firekat

Look at the way that Apple has hobbled their devices.

Um... Have you ever tried developing on Apple, or for Apple...? Not only do they provide developer tools, they do it (via Xcode) at no extra cost for a basic environment. OS X is also a very good base to start developing due to its Unix heritage...

firekat · 08-02-2006, 02:21 PM

Like I said, I am not a hacker/developer. But I do own an iPod. Try hacking or developing for that. The device is completely closed off. Apple attempts to jam that stupid iTunes down your throat so that they can sell you their sonically substandard "DRMed" music. They have even taken the Quicktime player and attached it inexorably to that bloatware. Finding the download for just the Quicktime player the last time I checked was not an easy task. The iPod was reponsible for getting me into MP3 players. I was using a Minidisc player which is very good but the MP3's are better if you use the best compression format and bit rate. Back to the iPod - it's not up to the hype. The audio quality of my Palm T3 with Aeroplayer installed is far in exceedence to the iPod and it can play a number of different superior formats that the iPod cannot and will not ever support.

I have a PC running Windoze and I have my own strong negative sentiment with that. I have a second hard drive for a dual boot Ubuntu but I just have better things to do with my time than wrestling with getting Linux to properly run on my machine, additionally it will not run the Windows based software I run of which there are no replacements - period. I have at times threatened to get a Mac, but considering that it as it the case in Linux it does not run the software I need and the cost of replacing all the hardware AND software (if it was available), makes it prohibitive.

The senitment of my post was not a complaint, it was just a potential justification of companies actions and that we have to exercise a bit more patience. I will be interested to see how "open" the iRex SDK will be for you developers. I am hoping that it will be WIDE open!

Good Luck To Us All!

jæd · 08-02-2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firekat

Like I said, I am not a hacker/developer. But I do own an iPod. Try hacking or developing for that. The device is completely closed off.

Um... Well, you can use Ephpod or GtkPod to put songs onto it, and there is even a full (Linux based) replacement os for it. (Which can run Doom on later models). So I'm not sure its closed off... And it too late to write the illiad off as closed source, and yes, as a developer I will wait and see how the SDK turns out...

deadite66 · 08-02-2006, 02:36 PM

rockbox have had a attempt at hacking the ipod
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockbox

firekat · 08-02-2006, 02:55 PM

I have checked out the alternatives but my model is not supported (it's only about 2.5 to 3 years old) and the last time I checked some of these alternatives have very limited functionality. That of course says nothing to the fact that the iPod's audio output quality is pretty poor, this is a hardware issue. It certainly isn't up to the lowest expectations of most audiophiles.

To my knowledge there is no SDK for the iPod and all these stated alternatives came about by the hard work and reverse engineering of all you very talented hackers/developers and has nothing to do with Apple's cooperation.

I can put music on the iPod and it is fuctional in a limited fashion. I will never buy another iPod.

I similarily do not see the iLiad as closed off either. All I said is that we all need to exercise a little patience!

It was not my intent to put a stick into the hornet's nest! Jeez!

ali · 08-02-2006, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firekat

To my knowledge there is no SDK for the iPod and all these stated alternatives came about by the hard work and reverse engineering of all you very talented hackers/developers and has nothing to do with Apple's cooperation.

Dude, the key point is the reinstall. There's a rescue mode on the iPod plus free software to reinstall the thing if you break the OS of your iPod. So far, iRex states that you void your warranty and have to pay 75 euros for a reinstall.

To translate it: Imagine you'd have to pay that much each time you reinstall windows on your desktop PC. Would you try out new drivers? Play with registry settings? Install lots of software? Try some programming yourself?

DHer · 08-02-2006, 04:34 PM

well, check out http://gpl-violations.org/faq/sourcecode-faq.html

Quote:

Please note that this is of special practical importance in the case of embedded devices, since the executable program(s) need to be somehow installed onto the device. If the user is not given a way to install his own (modified) versions of the program, he has no way of exercising his freedom to run modified versions of the program.

I guess this translates into a GPL violation in case they offer no software to flash the iliad.

I really hope (for them) that there will be a flash utility, so i'll be the only one who had to pay for this basic service. But, at the moment, a running iliad in the hand is better then a GPL violation on the roof. (Or what's the right way to express this?)

The GPL is really viral, when i come to think about this...

b_k · 08-02-2006, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ali

Dude, the key point is the reinstall. There's a rescue mode on the iPod plus free software to reinstall the thing if you break the OS of your iPod. So far, iRex states that you void your warranty and have to pay 75 euros for a reinstall.

To translate it: Imagine you'd have to pay that much each time you reinstall windows on your desktop PC. Would you try out new drivers? Play with registry settings? Install lots of software? Try some programming yourself?

/me gnaws his desk.
this disqualifies the iLiad for every idea of experimenting with it.

I hope this thing about the 75 EUR reinstall will change.
Otherwise we can just hope someone will find a way to reflash the device without opening it (like for JTAG). There must be a way.

b_k · 08-02-2006, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHer

well, check out http://gpl-violations.org/faq/sourcecode-faq.html

I guess this translates into a GPL violation in case they offer no software to flash the iliad.

I really hope (for them) that there will be a flash utility, so i'll be the only one who had to pay for this basic service. But, at the moment, a running iliad in the hand is better then a GPL violation on the roof. (Or what's the right way to express this?)

The GPL is really viral, when i come to think about this...

Thats why someone came up with LGPL. But if you decide to use a Linux system and modify it you acknowledge the GPL. They could have choosen another OS, i think there are other options.
But does another OS come to your mind (except BSDs) that runs on such a broad collection of different hardware?

the next paragraph is more interesting i think.

Quote:

Sometimes, the process of installation is not facilitated by scripts, but by some other means (such as executable programs). The GPL text only mentions the word "scripts". But when reading and interpreting the license, it is clearly understood that the license doesn't specifically only mean "scripts", but any kind of software programs that are required to install a (modified) version of the compiled program.

KILI · 08-02-2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander Turcic

We told them that we'd welcome any iRex employee in our community.

And guess what: first they agreed. But then the idea was refused, apparently by someone from the upper management, and my only guess is that they didn't like the idea of having no control of what's been said here.

I must say I am more than slightly disappointed that they didn't even bother to put us in their links collection - despite everything our members have done to increase their sales and to smooth out their frequent miscommunication.

Yo all your enthousiatic hacking nerd geeks (like me) check this out...
http://www.irextechnologies.com/jobs/development
They are hiring our kind over there....Sry to say embeded is not my cake but maybe on of you could do some development remotely for them (lol)....

If you cant beat them.......

Alexander Turcic · 08-04-2006, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHer

I really hope (for them) that there will be a flash utility, so i'll be the only one who had to pay for this basic service. But, at the moment, a running iliad in the hand is better then a GPL violation on the roof. (Or what's the right way to express this?

Not sure if they updated their GPL notice or if its been there before, but iRex states that they will provide everything necessary to rebuilt the "full iLiad software":

iRex will comply 100% to the GPL by providing all source codes including the modifications made to open source applications. For software developed by external companies and iRex’ code that uses IP we will provide the binaries so the full iLiad software can be rebuilt

Even if they don't release the flash tools - with the full software (sources) at hand I don't think it'll take long for someone to release his own flash program.

08-02-2006, 01:09 PM	#18
firekat Groupie Posts: 157 Karma: 314 Join Date: May 2006	I am not a hacker but I can certainly understand the frustration of people with these skills. In some aspects the concept and implementation of programmable electronic device manufacture and marketing is still in it's infancy. The point is that most hackers/programmers see a new device as a blank chalkboard/whiteboard and an opportunity to use the tools that they have to get what they want out of the new device. It seems that they see manufacturers of these devices as just toolmakers, facilitating what they want to do with the device. The manufacturers want to control all access to the device. They don't want to be thought of as just a hardware supplier. They see opening up the device to further functionality as a potential loss of revenue. A hacker could come up with functionality that was not thought of by the manufacturer and sell it. I don't see this happening in this small community here on mobileread but on the outside world it is completely different, hence companies are very guarded in what they will do with their devices and just how open they will be with it. A tool manufacturer sells you a screwdriver. They want you to use it only as a screwdriver. They don't want you to use it as a chisel, scraper, driftpin, alignment tool, prybar, etc. They want you to purchase all those tools, not just the screwdriver. Look at the way that Apple has hobbled their devices. If you want something or some further functionality from them you either give up or wait until they build another one that will satisfy your needs/desires. It is their branding. They make you want/need it, tell you how happy you will be with it, and then when you want a little more they tell you that you don't really and are going against the group and how superior their product is inspite of it's shortcomings. One thing that I do have to give them is that their stuff usually works - without fault. You just can't do anything with it other than what they will allow you to. I can commiserate with the frustration. I am trying to maintain a positive "glass is half full" attitude. But at times I can get pessimistic, think that iRex is just going to dump this thing as is, and will either sell the company off or just give up. We are not a very patient lot. We all want it NOW!!! After all we did get iRex to pre-release this device contrary to their initial plans. We did get very upset with their lack of communication or a percieved sense of miscommunication. In the end they do appear to be working with us - to a certain extent and to whatever degree they desire. The thing is it will all take time. The sliding release times of the other e-ink devices tells me that there is more to these devices than what might initially meet the eye. C'est la Vie! (Excuse me if I spelled this wrong) I am hoping that it will all work out in the end - I just want it RIGHT NOW! Maybe we need to start another meditation thread? P.S. As I was penning this after I finished I noted the subsequent references to the meditation thread. Boy things move fast here! Last edited by firekat; 08-02-2006 at 01:14 PM.

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08-02-2006, 12:46 PM	#16
DHer Addict Posts: 261 Karma: 156 Join Date: Jul 2006 Device: iliad	yeah, for sharing disappointments the Iliad subforum is just the right place. Have you considered participating in the official meditation thread?

08-02-2006, 02:21 PM	#21
firekat Groupie Posts: 157 Karma: 314 Join Date: May 2006	Like I said, I am not a hacker/developer. But I do own an iPod. Try hacking or developing for that. The device is completely closed off. Apple attempts to jam that stupid iTunes down your throat so that they can sell you their sonically substandard "DRMed" music. They have even taken the Quicktime player and attached it inexorably to that bloatware. Finding the download for just the Quicktime player the last time I checked was not an easy task. The iPod was reponsible for getting me into MP3 players. I was using a Minidisc player which is very good but the MP3's are better if you use the best compression format and bit rate. Back to the iPod - it's not up to the hype. The audio quality of my Palm T3 with Aeroplayer installed is far in exceedence to the iPod and it can play a number of different superior formats that the iPod cannot and will not ever support. I have a PC running Windoze and I have my own strong negative sentiment with that. I have a second hard drive for a dual boot Ubuntu but I just have better things to do with my time than wrestling with getting Linux to properly run on my machine, additionally it will not run the Windows based software I run of which there are no replacements - period. I have at times threatened to get a Mac, but considering that it as it the case in Linux it does not run the software I need and the cost of replacing all the hardware AND software (if it was available), makes it prohibitive. The senitment of my post was not a complaint, it was just a potential justification of companies actions and that we have to exercise a bit more patience. I will be interested to see how "open" the iRex SDK will be for you developers. I am hoping that it will be WIDE open! Good Luck To Us All!

08-02-2006, 02:36 PM	#23
deadite66 Groupie Posts: 197 Karma: 16 Join Date: Apr 2006 Device: irex iliad, uk Kindle gen3	rockbox have had a attempt at hacking the ipod http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockbox

08-02-2006, 02:55 PM	#24
firekat Groupie Posts: 157 Karma: 314 Join Date: May 2006	I have checked out the alternatives but my model is not supported (it's only about 2.5 to 3 years old) and the last time I checked some of these alternatives have very limited functionality. That of course says nothing to the fact that the iPod's audio output quality is pretty poor, this is a hardware issue. It certainly isn't up to the lowest expectations of most audiophiles. To my knowledge there is no SDK for the iPod and all these stated alternatives came about by the hard work and reverse engineering of all you very talented hackers/developers and has nothing to do with Apple's cooperation. I can put music on the iPod and it is fuctional in a limited fashion. I will never buy another iPod. I similarily do not see the iLiad as closed off either. All I said is that we all need to exercise a little patience! It was not my intent to put a stick into the hornet's nest! Jeez!

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