Seriously thoughtful Civilians in UK to be monitored by drones

[kaas]

Actually, I have observed these tendencies in several countries, with the UK and US (more and more after 09.11.) leading the development. Unluckily Germany did follow on a few initiatives but has been called back by our highest court in a few instances (while in other cases civil rights have been eroded or ignored). I believe it is dangerous to place everybody under general suspicion and I strongly believe in "innocent untill proven guilty".
I just hope my children (when I have some) will grow up as upright citizens, not possible criminals to be watched every second and queried whether they - or their parens- did anything unlawfull.
I have experienced that growing up in the soviet republic and do not wish to see such a thing again...

p.s.: England is such a beautifull country with so rich a cultural background as well as history and I have tremendeously enjoyed my trips there in the 90's. Thus I personally regret seeing what is happening to it, even if it is only in my opinion...

[kaas]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

It's nothing new - there is barely a street in a town/city that is not festooned with CCTV; tis just another avenue to keep watch on us............

This actually reminded me of a story told by my host father in the us, who was a scotsman:

When they installed cctv's in their village, they were getting mysteriously broken or painted black. In the end the effort to restore and protect the cctv's became so big, that the police just gave up on the idea all together and removed them again

Go scotsmen!


cheers,

kaas

[Sparrow]

At least it'll free up the police chopper to fly the commissioner and his charming wife to their social engagements.

On the downside, these policies always seem sensible when they're introduced - but they always end up being abused by the powers that be.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

Since we're on the topic of the UK turning into a police state, let me give you my top 4 reasons your country scares me:

1, police can stop and search anyone, for any reason, or even no reason at all;
2, you have vast numbers of cameras in your major metropolitan areas, and you keep adding more even though they do nothing to solve crimes;
3, more people keep being given uniforms and police powers but not training;
4, it's now common in your country to require a criminal background check of everyone who comes in contact with children, never mind the expense or the fact that most children molested are by a relative (not some complete stranger in a public place).

you missed out ....

5, the taking of photographs in any public place may be a terrorist act

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by GeoffC

you missed out ....

5, the taking of photographs in any public place may be a terrorist act

Especially if done with this camera:

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by kaas

This actually reminded me of a story told by my host father in the us, who was a scotsman:

When they installed cctv's in their village, they were getting mysteriously broken or painted black. In the end the effort to restore and protect the cctv's became so big, that the police just gave up on the idea all together and removed them again

Go scotsmen!

And when the police realized they couldn't stop all the crime, did they all quit as well?

Go crime!

I'm not sure why everyone reacts so violently to the idea of possibly being caught on-camera doing nothing... unless you're really committing regular crimes, of course. I mean, show of hands, who really believes those drones will be out trying to catch people scratching their butts, in order to send the photos to their bosses or blackmail them into buying magazine subscriptions? Do you really think your government has that kind of time on their hands? Because I know my government can't scratch its own butt, much less keep track of mine.

And who really hasn't noticed all the security cameras in the stores, the banks, the gas stations, in front of the cash machines, in the McDonalds, etc, etc, etc... or have you decided not to do business in any of those places, ever again? And are you still using credit cards that track every purchase, or have you switched to a cash economy?

With all the monitoring that's already being directed at you... you're worried about a toy plane? Seems like a bit of an overreaction to me.

But that's me.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

With all the monitoring that's already being directed at you... you're worried about a toy plane? Seems like a bit of an overreaction to me.

"With a wing span of 12.6m, the HERTI could travel at between 90 and 120 knots and use around ten litres of fuel an hour."

It's the environmental damage that keeps me awake at night.

60,000,000 of those things buzzing around is going to be pretty noisy apart from anything else (I presume the police will only want us to have 1 each).

[Javed]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

And who really hasn't noticed all the security cameras in the stores, the banks, the gas stations, in front of the cash machines, in the McDonalds, etc, etc, etc... or have you decided not to do business in any of those places, ever again? And are you still using credit cards that track every purchase, or have you switched to a cash economy?.

This is a good point, we are watched so much already. But surely there must be some limits to being observed or tracked. I would be concerned, for example, if we had to be compulsorarily implanted with a microchip. Though there are some benefits to this (eg medical), this also raises serious ethical and privacy issues when trackability is added to the equation.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

And when the police realized they couldn't stop all the crime, did they all quit as well?

Go crime!

I'm not sure why everyone reacts so violently to the idea of possibly being caught on-camera doing nothing... unless you're really committing regular crimes, of course. I mean, show of hands, who really believes those drones will be out trying to catch people scratching their butts, in order to send the photos to their bosses or blackmail them into buying magazine subscriptions? Do you really think your government has that kind of time on their hands? Because I know my government can't scratch its own butt, much less keep track of mine.

And who really hasn't noticed all the security cameras in the stores, the banks, the gas stations, in front of the cash machines, in the McDonalds, etc, etc, etc... or have you decided not to do business in any of those places, ever again? And are you still using credit cards that track every purchase, or have you switched to a cash economy?

With all the monitoring that's already being directed at you... you're worried about a toy plane? Seems like a bit of an overreaction to me.

But that's me.

What you've just said is akin to saying "Well, if you're not guilty, why be worried about X, Y or Z liberty being taken away? Why not an ID card with RFID when you already carry a driver's license? And why not a chip implanted under the skin if you're already carrying one in your wallet? And why not let us monitor you every breathing moment of the day just in case you're ill or sick or there's an emergency?" This is where fascism begins and civil liberty ends. Once they control every living moment of your day from your first yawn to the last brush of your teeth, then what freedoms are left? We become meat puppets, glad to walk in line, smiling when we're told to smile, jumping when they say how high. I control whether or not I use a credit or debit card. I'm the one who is photographed every few feet of the day from twenty feet up by cameras. Why would I want more surveillance of me? And who are the ones doing that surveillance? Who is in control and for what reasons? Where's my say in all this as a citizen, as a member of a democracy?

This isn't a slippery slope argument, this is a mud slide down a steep embankment argument. What next? No food if you're not implanted? No vote if you refuse to put your DNA in their database? No love unless its sanctioned by the government?

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out.

--Pastor Martin Niemöller

[Javed]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Why would I want more surveillance of me? And who are the ones doing that surveillance? Who is in control and for what reasons? Where's my say in all this as a citizen, as a member of a democracy?

Even though there is no specific, universally accepted definition of 'democracy', there are two principles that any definition of democracy includes, equality and freedom.

There is no freedom in being watched when I don't know this is happening or if I don't accept the conditions of being watched when I do know it is happening. There is no equality when there is some all-seeing-eye; especially when it (meaning they) is (are) deciding what this information is to be used for without my consent or knowledge.

[Javed]

Fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan have been able to use low cost software downloaded from the internet to hack into live video feeds from unmanned US surveillance aircraft, a military official has said.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, a senior US defence official told the Associated Press the fighters could view feeds from Predator drones - the US military's eyes in the sky for intelligence gathering - but could not take control of the aircraft or jam its electronic signals.

The fighters reportedly used software that costs less than $30 to hack into the video feed from the drones.

The Wall Street Journal first reported on Thursday that Shia fighters in Iraq had used software programs such as SkyGrabber, available for as little as $25.95 on the internet, to regularly capture drone video feeds.

Full written article here.

The video below shows what the drones look like (during take off and during flight), also it talks about drone feed interception.

[EowynCarter]

There are lots of camera in paris, as well are armed soliers every now and then, and yes, it annoys me.

Guess it's supposed to make us feel safe, but it actually scares the hell out me.

[Krystian Galaj]

Originally Posted by Javed

This is a good point, we are watched so much already. But surely there must be some limits to being observed or tracked. I would be concerned, for example, if we had to be compulsorarily implanted with a microchip. Though there are some benefits to this (eg medical), this also raises serious ethical and privacy issues when trackability is added to the equation.

All in due time, step by step. I expect when such drones are a common thing, the fact that they observe people and nothing really bad comes out of it, but they still need more information to solve crimes etc. will be a good argument for compulsory implants.

[kaas]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I'm not sure why everyone reacts so violently to the idea of possibly being caught on-camera doing nothing... unless you're really committing regular crimes, of course.

Then why would you object to being observed at home, or do you molest your children and rape your wife? Wouldn't it be great to avoid all the suffering happening behind closed doors with just a few cameras? Or are you hiding something? I mean we could record it via machine and only use it if a crime has been comitted- no need to fear privacy issues if you are innocent...

I understand that those are extreme examples, but what we accept erodes the boundry of what is allowed. And what is (even barely) acceptable will be done. As already mentioned, I grew up under a totalitary regime and do not wish to experiance the rise of another.

Just my 2 cents

kaas

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

... I'm not sure why everyone reacts so violently to the idea of possibly being caught on-camera doing nothing... unless you're really committing regular crimes, of course.

Originally Posted by kaas

Then why would you object to being observed at home, or do you molest your children and rape your wife?

I have no desire for government officials to watch me masturbate.