How to Destroy The Book - Cory Doctorow

[kennyc]

Well, yeah, I agree about the kids and kids movies, mine did too, but I personally just rarely re-watch and if I do then it's because Tivo caught it or I intentionally rent it from the movie store. No need to store them or spend money etc. Books I feel a bit different about as I do tend to collect them even if I don't re-read them and the ones I enjoy I tend to have multiple copies of -- particularly true since I've been e-reading as I have bought pbooks of the ebooks I enjoy!

[dkb]

Actually one of the things I like about e-books is that I can keep them without having to build/buy more bookshelves! So I find I have started re-reading some of my favorite series even though I have to buy them again--not having kept the original paperbacks. Since for many of them, it's been a long time, and my memory is not what it used to be--it's like spending time with an old friend. There's only a slight feeling of deja vue as I'm reading. And sometimes, some of the oldies are free or fairly cheap. I'm thinking, since storage isn't a problem anymore, I might be re-reading my old books more. So having access to my e-books is important to me. And yes, I wish they'd get rid of drm! If I buy an e-book file, it should be mine as long as I want to keep it, and it shouldn't be tied to a limited number of devices. I don't mind that I can't resell it or give it away, as long as I can share with family. In a perfect world, I should be able to read it on my Nook, or my iPod Touch, or my Sony, or my Kindle.

But alas, it's not a perfect world. And for now, I'm fairly content with my Kindle and Amazon. That being said, if I have a choice between getting my sci-fi from Amazon or Baen Books--I choose Baen Books. Not only because they're generally cheaper, but because there's no drm. I'm confident I'll still be able to read my Baen books even on my 7th Kindle device.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by kennyc

I've always wondered why people buy movies. Once in a while I like to re-watch one but not often enough to own it.

.

YOU obviously don't have kids or grandkids.

They will watch the same movie over and over and over ad nauseum until you know the lines by heart.

Plus..classic like the older Disney movies, "JungleBook", Snow White, Cinderella, etc, should be a mainstay of any collection............

Oh..........that and "Christmas Story"

There's another reason. They never play seasonal movies when I'm able to sit and watch peacefully........I'm going to put A Charlie Brown Christmas in sometime this week and watch at my convenience.........and no commericals......

But thats just me.

[fugazied]

If my house burns down with my Kindle in it and the Amazon servers blow up, THEN I will lose my ephemeral objects known as ebooks hehe.

They don't really call us 'anti-copyright activists' do they? I think publishers might call most of those pesky consumers ant-copyright activists if we oppose terrible DRM implementations which strip traditional ownership rights on e-books.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

The problem with ebooks is not that you lose them - but that you lose access to them even though you still have the files. With server-based DRM and limited device activations any DRM ebooks can become unreadable just because you've either used all your device activations and can't activate a new device or the server is down.

Not to say that you're wrong, but I notice that people don't protest this aspect when it comes to video games and software -- which are significantly more expensive than books (though the total collection cost may not be as high). Why is this obsolescence acceptable for games, yet invokes the Furies when it comes to books -- even when it hasn't happened yet?

(And yes, some of us like to play older video games, almost as much as we like to read books we bought 20 years ago. )

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

YOU obviously don't have kids or grandkids.

They will watch the same movie over and over and over ad nauseum until you know the lines by heart.

Bzzzzt Wrong! DING DING DING! In fact that's one reason I don't want to see a movie again.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Not to say that you're wrong, but I notice that people don't protest this aspect when it comes to video games and software -- which are significantly more expensive than books (though the total collection cost may not be as high). Why is this obsolescence acceptable for games, yet invokes the Furies when it comes to books -- even when it hasn't happened yet?

At least in my generation we were inculcated with the belief that books are permanent knowledge sources and thus to be treasured and kept; games were not. Of course, also at play is that books of ideas have been banned and burned; games aren't banned or burned. Books contain dangerous thoughts; games are mind numbing.

Can you imagine Mario leading to the kind of upheavel that Karl Marx's Das Kapital did? What game evokes the controversy of Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird or led to industrial reform like Upton Sinclair's The Jungle did? Or even caused the soul searching of Dalton Trumbo's Johnny Got His Gun?

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by fugazied

If my house burns down with my Kindle in it and the Amazon servers blow up, THEN I will lose my ephemeral objects known as ebooks hehe.

.

Not if you were smart enough to strip the drm, and back those books up in other places.......like maybe an sd card, or a drop box, or an online backup system.............or another computer......or.........a thumb drive..........or..................??

Its not the device, or even Amazon..........its the backing up that will keep your books safe.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Not if you were smart enough to strip the drm, and back those books up in other places.......like maybe an sd card, or a drop box, or an online backup system.............or another computer......or.........a thumb drive..........or..................??

Its not the device, or even Amazon..........its the backing up that will keep your books safe.

I think you are going to have to change your name to backupgrandma.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by rhadin

At least in my generation we were inculcated with the belief that books are permanent knowledge sources and thus to be treasured and kept; games were not....

I guess you haven't been to a bookstore lately.

But seriously, I'm not trying to draw an equivalence between the social or intellectual value of video games and books. Nor does the asserted inferiority of the medium matter. My point is that there isn't a great deal of protest about format obsolescence with digital products in general. People aren't completely up in arms that a game they paid $50 for a few years ago won't work on their current consoles. (Similarly, when we transitioned from 78s to 33 1/3 vinyl to CD's, the presumption that a vinyl record entitled one to a free CD didn't exactly take root; i.e. ownership does not always guarantee lifetime access to the cultural product.)

There are also many valid reasons to "treasure" a game from an earlier time, by the way, ranging from nostalgia to good ol' playability.


P.S., I'm not 16, and there are plenty of middle-aged people who grew up with video games. I don't think this is a "generational" issue, it's a question of why X is a huge concern with one medium but not an issue at all with another.

Originally Posted by rhadin

Of course, also at play is that books of ideas have been banned and burned; games aren't banned or burned. Books contain dangerous thoughts; games are mind numbing.

Video games are routinely attacked by politicians and "concerned citizens." Political games aren't especially common, but they do exist, and would get banned just as quickly as any books by a totalitarian regime. Ownership of paper books didn't successfully stop Qin Shi Huang or Chairman Mao from destroying untold writings (and academic writers) in the name of "unifying" China. (If anything, it is arguably more difficult to suppress content in a networked digital era.)

Plenty of books that outsell Ulysses by an order of magnitude can also be characterized as "mind numbing." And many games can actually be both intellectually challenging (e.g. Myst) or involve elements of social connection and cooperation.



On a separate note, I have to say that viewing the ownership of books as a key element to their value is slightly absurd, given the huge value and contributions of a rather temporary method of accessing a book -- namely, the library.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by Nitrousoxide

Me, personally, I'm glad to pay a reduced price for a licence to read a book vs ownership of the book.

Sure, so would I. $2-3 at best, for a novel (and $1 for pulp-listers). Anything higher? Nope.

Licensing, like DRM, reduces the value of the content to me - drastically. (And I'll insist on the laws surrounding a service be followed as well, if you insist on selling it to me as a service...hi Amazon!)

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Not to say that you're wrong, but I notice that people don't protest this aspect when it comes to video games and software -- which are significantly more expensive than books (though the total collection cost may not be as high). Why is this obsolescence acceptable for games, yet invokes the Furies when it comes to books -- even when it hasn't happened yet?

(And yes, some of us like to play older video games, almost as much as we like to read books we bought 20 years ago. )

What are you basing that on? Nobody being lynched yet? If you think it's accepted you mustn't have visited any gaming sites. DRM backlash is tame in ebooks compared to the gaming world.

Just one example:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...091400885.html

[Billjr13]

Originally Posted by rhadin

At least in my generation we were inculcated with the belief that books are permanent knowledge sources and thus to be treasured and kept; games were not. Of course, also at play is that books of ideas have been banned and burned; games aren't banned or burned. Books contain dangerous thoughts; games are mind numbing.

Can you imagine Mario leading to the kind of upheavel that Karl Marx's Das Kapital did? What game evokes the controversy of Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird or led to industrial reform like Upton Sinclair's The Jungle did? Or even caused the soul searching of Dalton Trumbo's Johnny Got His Gun?

Are you forgetting about the protests from parents and politicians over Doom and Grand Theft Auto? Games like these were blamed for all of societies ills, from the Columbine High School murders to gang violence.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Barcey

DRM backlash is tame in ebooks compared to the gaming world.

Re-read my posts. DRM issues != losing access to content due to system obsolescence.

[Marcy]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

I guess you haven't been to a bookstore lately.

But seriously, I'm not trying to draw an equivalence between the social or intellectual value of video games and books. Nor does the asserted inferiority of the medium matter. My point is that there isn't a great deal of protest about format obsolescence with digital products in general. People aren't completely up in arms that a game they paid $50 for a few years ago won't work on their current consoles. (Similarly, when we transitioned from 78s to 33 1/3 vinyl to CD's, the presumption that a vinyl record entitled one to a free CD didn't exactly take root; i.e. ownership does not always guarantee lifetime access to the cultural product.)

There are also many valid reasons to "treasure" a game from an earlier time, by the way, ranging from nostalgia to good ol' playability.

The answer to this is simple. Those other formats always had the obsolescence factor built in, being relatively new technologies, especially video games. People know when they buy these things that they might not work 3 or 5 years down the line.

Books have always been forever. You bought a book and assuming you treated it right you could re-read it your whole life. When I was a kid my grandparents gave me boxes and boxes of books that were originally my mom's when she was a kid -- a complete set of Nancy Drew's up until she outgrew them, a set of Dana Girls and the Bobbsey Twins and others I can't remember. I still have those books and they are still readable now, 45-55 years later.

I don't mind paying once for an ebook that I already own a pbook copy of - I consider it the equivalent of wanting both the paperback and the hardback. However it is ridiculous to ask me to pay again and again if I just want to change the device I'm reading it on. It's the same book -- the same content -- and I already paid for it. That's why I strip all DRM, convert everything to epub and back them up both on a second hard drive and online.

Once I own a pbook I can do anything I want with it. I can read it a bazillion times or just once. I can even *gasp* lend it to a friend who then gets to read it for free. If the author changes publishers or the book goes out of print, my copy is still mine. Forever. In a non-DRM'ed and non-proprietary format. That's what I want and expect from my ebooks.

-Marcy