Classic Barnes and Noble and epub

[wallcraft]

Originally Posted by Robotech_Master

I'm not too sure about that. A year ago, Steve Pendergrast was talking about how they were going to be adopting ePub format using the standard Fictionwise eReader DRM wrapper.

That was before the deal between B&N and Adobe. At a minimum, this was a good negotiating ploy targeting Adobe. Having two DRM schemes for ePub would have been a bad idea. In a sense we have this, with AdobeID vs Adobe password, but having both supported from the same server is a big win for readers. Note that eReader's password/creditcard approach really is "social" DRM in the sense that it places no limits on the number of devices that can read the ebook, and it does not require remote authorization of each device. Also, in Adobe's implementation other providers do not have to use a credit card number - it really could in principle be any password.

[clarknova]

Originally Posted by wallcraft

Note that eReader's password/creditcard approach really is "social" DRM in the sense that it places no limits on the number of devices that can read the ebook, and it does not require remote authorization of each device.

Wallcraft, has this been confirmed to be the case with the new ePub DRM scheme? Ie. can a nook user copy an ePub file directly from their nook to their computer and open it with the B&N reader?

Also (since I'm asking here anyway), can a nook user simply copy an ePub from their nook to another person's nook (well, to a person whom they trust with their credit card)? Will the nook prompt for the CCN, or will it only try to use the CCN of the account tied to that particular nook?

[wallcraft]

Originally Posted by clarknova

Wallcraft, has this been confirmed to be the case with the new ePub DRM scheme? Ie. can a nook user copy an ePub file directly from their nook to their computer and open it with the B&N reader?

Also (since I'm asking here anyway), can a nook user simply copy an ePub from their nook to another person's nook (well, to a person whom they trust with their credit card)? Will the nook prompt for the CCN, or will it only try to use the CCN of the account tied to that particular nook?

I don't have a Nook to test this with, but that is the way it has been advertised to work (and is definitely the way that eReader has always worked). You can have multiple username/password pairs "on file" on the same device. I have several for eReader. If an ebook comes in (eReader or ePub) with a new password you should get prompted for that credit card name and number. It will then be on file for the next ebook and you won't need to add it again. If you use the same credit card for eReader and ePub you might have to add it twice (I'm not sure), because what is saved is not the credit card info but a 1-way hash of that info and the hash might be different for ePub.

I agree that having someone with a Nook test this would be good. They would need two B&N accounts with different credit cards on file, and the ePubs from the second account would need to be "side loaded" over USB.

[DaleDe]

Of course just giving a file to all or any of your friends is a copyright violation and against the law. Even if you trust them with your credit card number.

Dale

[wallcraft]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Of course just giving a file to all or any of your friends is a copyright violation and against the law. Even if you trust them with your credit card number.

I have no idea if there are any legal opinions that address this point, but if a publisher relies on DRM then anything that DRM allows is on its face allowed. This could be more permissive than standard copyright law (e.g. beyond fair use), because the DRM is from an agent of the copyright holder.

The usual case for sharing credit card info for ebooks would be within your immediate family, and most people probably think this is obviously ok. Other schemes, like the Kindle's "one account six devices", Adobe's "one AdobeID six devices", and MobiPocket's "4 devices (PIDs) per ebook" also allow limited sharing by multiple individuals.

[clarknova]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Of course just giving a file to all or any of your friends is a copyright violation and against the law. Even if you trust them with your credit card number.

Umm... you might want to qualify that statement. Even given the context of the discussion that's not necessarily true.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by clarknova

Umm... you might want to qualify that statement. Even given the context of the discussion that's not necessarily true.

It really is necessarily true. DRM schemes do not change in any way the copyright law. It is independent of DRM. If you own a copyrighted book you cannot give a copy to all your friends. It is ownership of one copy that you bought. Sure Social DRM may permit you to make a copy for use on another machine that you own. Other forms of DRM also allow you to make a copy for other machines that you own. The inability to enforce the rules so that you can't use a neighbors machine on your account does not change the law. Some social DRM just adds a watermark to the book. This does not allow you to make 1000 copies so long as you are willing to let them see your watermark.

Certainly you could cancel your credit card and provide 1,000 copies to anyone who wanted them but you are kidding (deluding) yourself if you think this is legal.

Dale

[wallcraft]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

It really is necessarily true. DRM schemes do not change in any way the copyright law. It is independent of DRM. If you own a copyrighted book you cannot give a copy to all your friends.

You can give a copy to all your friends if the copyright holder give you the right to do so. This is entirely up to the copyright holder. What isn't up to the copyright holder are "fair use" rights, i.e. things you don't need permission for. The DMCA did change copyright law for ebooks, and my point is that DRM defines (or could be interpreted to define) what the copyright holder allows you to do with the ebook. On the MobiPocket forum, for example, an employee of MobiPocket explicitly said that if you want 20 students to read an ebook then you buy 5 copies of the ebook (4 students, or 4 PCs, per ebook file). The employee was not necessarily following MobiPocket's guidelines, but this is the default assumption - that DRM (Digital Rights Management) means what it says. If it is not managing (defining) digital rights, then it isn't doing its job.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by wallcraft

You can give a copy to all your friends if the copyright holder give you the right to do so. This is entirely up to the copyright holder. What isn't up to the copyright holder are "fair use" rights, i.e. things you don't need permission for. The DMCA did change copyright law for ebooks, and my point is that DRM defines (or could be interpreted to define) what the copyright holder allows you to do with the ebook. On the MobiPocket forum, for example, an employee of MobiPocket explicitly said that if you want 20 students to read an ebook then you buy 5 copies of the ebook (4 students, or 4 PCs, per ebook file). The employee was not necessarily following MobiPocket's guidelines, but this is the default assumption - that DRM (Digital Rights Management) means what it says. If it is not managing (defining) digital rights, then it isn't doing its job.

It is true that with explicit permission of the copyright holder you can do what they allow. But DRM tools do not provide explicit or even implicit permission to do whatever you can get away with. If you look at all of the FAQ in the various sites they talk about eBook devices that you own. It is likely to interpret ownership includes your immediate family but even that is stretching (slightly) the interpretation of the law. What it explicitly says is you can move books to another machine that you own.

Dale

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Robotech_Master

I learned about this over on Baen's Bar, where someone with eReader for his PalmOS device complained about buying an e-book in good faith and expecting it to be in eReader format, but finding it in eReaderPub instead.

I went to B&N to investigate, and wrote my findings up in TeleRead. There is no hint on B&N's e-book pages or in their FAQ that they've shifted away from plain-vanilla Fictionwise eReader, and a couple of hints that suggest to the uninformed that they haven't.

(The name "eReader" is triply confusing now. Not only is it used by the uninformed to refer to e-book readers in general, but now there's Fictionwise's eReader and Barnes & Noble's eReader, which use different formats. Oy.)

eReaderPub isn't a format. It's still ePub. Just that it has this new DRm that we don't want and don't need.

eReader from B&N is the same eReader from Fictionwise.

B&N is not doing business in good faith. They say eReader all over the place and yet are selling ePub with this new DRM that nobody wants who is buying the eBook because they are expecting eReader format. No place in the listing does it say it's ePub and if you download the sample and find it is in ePub, it's DRM free (for the sample0 and then if you do go to buy the eBook, you get DRM that makes it useless.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

I wonder what this means for the just released eSlick and jetBook devices that are supposed to support eReader from Barnes and Noble?

Dale

According to what RobertB said in the Astak forum, B&N wants eReader to be the exclusive DRM. So it means that it's possible that both will only ever has eReader for DRm and maybe ePub with the new DRm. But that we won't know of till it happens (if it ever does). But why go with eReader when even B&N is moving away from it?

[clarknova]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

It really is necessarily true.

No, because, you really need to qualify your blanket statements.

Originally Posted by DaleDe

DRM schemes do not change in any way the copyright law. It is independent of DRM.

You missed your own point here, and have mistakenly assumed that only copyrighted books are encumbered with DRM. You're kidding (deluding) yourself if you think that DRM has anything to do with protecting copyrights.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by clarknova

No, because, you really need to qualify your blanket statements.



You missed your own point here, and have mistakenly assumed that only copyrighted books are encumbered with DRM. You're kidding (deluding) yourself if you think that DRM has anything to do with protecting copyrights.

You are right in that they are different and some publishers even put DRM on Public Domain eBooks although usually they claim to have added something that needs to be protected according to them. However, DRM is specifically the method used by Publishers in an attempt to enforce copyright. They are connected in that way.

Dale

[idraw22]

Is there some special software, maybe at download.com or some other site that you can remove the DRM or what? Also what stores can you goto that don't sell DRM-ed ebooks?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by idraw22

Is there some special software, maybe at download.com or some other site that you can remove the DRM or what? Also what stores can you goto that don't sell DRM-ed ebooks?

Site policy is to forbid direct posting or links to DRM-removal policy. A google search should help you.

Several ebook stores have non-DRM ebooks, but it often depends on the publisher rather than the retailer.

http://www.webscription.net/ -- all DRM-free, but only SF/Fantasy
http://www.fictionwise.com/ -- DRM-free separately searchable
http://www.smashwords.com/ -- mostly self/small publishers
http://www.amazon.com/Kindle-Books/b/?node=1286228011 -- some DRM-free, marked as "Simultaneous Device Usage: Unlimited"