Amazon $150k payout for student's lost notes - Page 2

Mike L · 10-03-2009, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Remember, this never went to trial, so the student didn't have to show any real loss either. Amazon has already set the precedent that they are willing to give payouts when this happens.

You're right. In this particular case, the student never had the opportunity to demonstrate his loss to the court. But presumably he was able to use it as part of the bargaining process. If he hadn't suffered any significant loss, Amazon would have had no reason to seek a settlement.

As for setting a precedent, well you might be right about that as well, although it wouldn't be a precedent in the legal sense, that is, one that a future court would take account of.

On the other hand, I'd have thought Amazon would have been able to say in their defence that the student should have taken reasonable precautions to safeguard his notes (such as backing them up to his PC).

anahid · 10-03-2009, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike L

On the other hand, I'd have thought Amazon would have been able to say in their defence that the student should have taken reasonable precautions to safeguard his notes (such as backing them up to his PC).

He probably had backups. I find it very hard to believe that he only had his copy on the Kindle. I am a student and use my reader to study, converting "word" documents, and I have at least 2 copies of every document, both in .doc and pdf.

SpiderMatt · 10-03-2009, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcuadro

Though I do not condone what Amazon did... it is sad the world that we live in when a lost set of notes can be worth $150k...

Ditto.

Mike L · 10-03-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anahid

He probably had backups. I find it very hard to believe that he only had his copy on the Kindle.

Well, if that's the case, I can only think that Amazon's lawyers weren't on the ball for not raising it in their defence.

Musicman · 10-03-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcuadro

Though I do not condone what Amazon did... it is sad the world that we live in when a lost set of notes can be worth $150k...

While the notes may not be worth the $150k, what price would you put on a violation of your rights or privacy. I think this was in part punitive damages against Amazon aimed at sending them a signal not to do this again.

I wonder what the punishment would be if the student hacked in the Amazon server and deleted some books?

Hellmark · 10-03-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike L

Well, if that's the case, I can only think that Amazon's lawyers weren't on the ball for not raising it in their defence.

His argument was that even after his notes were restored, they were useless since they referred to page numbers where things were mentioned, rather than just quoting them in the notes, and he was unable to use them for MLA style quoting anyway.

EricGagne · 10-03-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcuadro

Though I do not condone what Amazon did... it is sad the world that we live in when a lost set of notes can be worth $150k...

I disagree with you on this. Amazon didn't only destroy a set of notes, they actually destroyed the work of someone. There's an element of intellectual property attached to the notes a student takes when he's working on some project.

I think Amazon settled because they knew damn well it would have cost them much more in court. They also wanted to avoid any legal ruling stating they're not allowed to delete books from their customer's Kindles.

I can't believe it would only be a coincidence that this comes at just about the same time Amazon published a new TOS or something stating that they will delete books under certain circumstances.

And with all that said..............................the student in question is a bit of an idiot because if these notes were so important they should have been backed up somewhere. He could have dropped is Kindle, lose it, it could have been stolen or abducted by aliens from planet liseuse. Point is, there's dozens of different ways he could have lost them. He should have had a copy.

tompe · 10-03-2009, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anahid

He probably had backups. I find it very hard to believe that he only had his copy on the Kindle. I am a student and use my reader to study, converting "word" documents, and I have at least 2 copies of every document, both in .doc and pdf.

As I understood it the notes was annotations that was anchored at specific positions in the book so you need the book for the notes to be useful.

Ocean · 10-03-2009, 04:51 PM

Quote:

That gives Amazon a LOT of motivation to avoid this scenario in the future.

Well, I thought the CEO himself called what his employees did pretty stupid -- so I was already sure it wouldn't happen again...at least not on Bezos watch.

Ocean · 10-03-2009, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

True, but Amazon thinking they could get away with what they did

Thats quite a broad brush to paint the entire company with right?

This a small subset of a small group of employees.

fugazied · 10-03-2009, 05:46 PM

I think he should be happy with that settlement, seems very generous to me. After all this guy had the crazy idea to use an ebook device like a laptop. I use my laptop for all work related tasks simply because it's automatically backed up via time machine and I have a remote backup of my important docs on Amazon S3. The golden rule is to backup everything. This guy screwed up in that sense.

brecklundin · 10-03-2009, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricGagne

I disagree with you on this. Amazon didn't only destroy a set of notes, they actually destroyed the work of someone. There's an element of intellectual property attached to the notes a student takes when he's working on some project.

I think Amazon settled because they knew damn well it would have cost them much more in court. They also wanted to avoid any legal ruling stating they're not allowed to delete books from their customer's Kindles.

I can't believe it would only be a coincidence that this comes at just about the same time Amazon published a new TOS or something stating that they will delete books under certain circumstances.

And with all that said..............................the student in question is a bit of an idiot because if these notes were so important they should have been backed up somewhere. He could have dropped is Kindle, lose it, it could have been stolen or abducted by aliens from planet liseuse. Point is, there's dozens of different ways he could have lost them. He should have had a copy.

Amazingly enough many here simply do not seem to grasp that concept. AMAZON DID NOT WANT A LEGAL PRECEDENT SET as would be the case if this went to trial, where I am pretty sure a jury would view this as willful negligence along with theft and destruction of copyrighted property, namely the notes as well as breaking into your device. Amazon is apparently not ready for that fight just yet.

BTW, just because Amazon changed their TOS does NOT mean it is legal for them to ever do this...all it says is they will try and get away with it. Also any content purchased prior to the new TOS is not subject to the changes, even if they try and say it does. You can try and change terms after the fact but that does not mean it's legal or will hold up in civil court.

The thing about this whole situation is people are now aware of the pitfalls of the situation where you allow access to your device to some company. Clear laws need to be written to govern this situation. I mean this is no different than some SodaCo breaking down your door to take back a case of soda you bought that they had no legal right to sell you. There are LEGAL ways to address such matters but the company can't just reach in and steal it.

daffy4u · 10-03-2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300com

Well i don't think it works exactly that way, if the guys notes were worth $30
there would be no incentive for Amazon to ensure that they don't do it again.
I believe they've so far twice deleted peoples material.

So a bigger fine is needed to actually sway it's business practices.

Amazon did not need additional incentive. They'd already been blasted by the press along with Kindle owners and non-Kindle owners. Jeff Bezos wrote a public letter admitting to making a judgment error and promising that it would not happen again. Amazon also paid each person who had the book removed $30 dollars (if they chose to receive it) on top of the refund of the book's price given when it was removed.

basschick · 10-03-2009, 10:20 PM

after the lawyer, third party and taxes, the student got around $25,000, not $150,000. and i don't know the situation, but if he needed his work with the ebook to create a final or other schoolwork that was a substantial part of the grade, he could have run into real issues with his grades that could have changed what classes he could take next, where he did his postgrad or whether scholarship money he was receiving continued.

jeremy_ahn · 10-05-2009, 07:21 PM

that still does not excuse the students' late grades though.
i wish i had a kindle so i could have gotten some of this payback money. i would have used it to actually buy a kindle.

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10-03-2009, 05:46 PM	#26
fugazied Wizard Posts: 1,305 Karma: 1958 Join Date: Jan 2009 Device: iPod Touch	I think he should be happy with that settlement, seems very generous to me. After all this guy had the crazy idea to use an ebook device like a laptop. I use my laptop for all work related tasks simply because it's automatically backed up via time machine and I have a remote backup of my important docs on Amazon S3. The golden rule is to backup everything. This guy screwed up in that sense.

10-03-2009, 10:20 PM	#29
basschick Wizard Posts: 1,096 Karma: 4695691 Join Date: May 2008 Device: Kindle Paperwhite	after the lawyer, third party and taxes, the student got around $25,000, not $150,000. and i don't know the situation, but if he needed his work with the ebook to create a final or other schoolwork that was a substantial part of the grade, he could have run into real issues with his grades that could have changed what classes he could take next, where he did his postgrad or whether scholarship money he was receiving continued.

10-05-2009, 07:21 PM	#30
jeremy_ahn Banned Posts: 64 Karma: 22 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: any	that still does not excuse the students' late grades though. i wish i had a kindle so i could have gotten some of this payback money. i would have used it to actually buy a kindle.

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