Better without pages - Page 2

zerospinboson · 09-29-2009, 03:46 PM

Well, if I ignore the fact that it's pretty useless for academic work, I don't really mind thinking in terms of what percentage of the book I've finished. It sounds a bit off, perhaps (I'm 40% through is something you'd sooner say of something you hate or dislike than something you like), but connotations can change easy as apple pie anyway. Still, paragraph numbers (and the screen space that needs to be reserved for them) are ugly, as well as fairly hard to put in, considering how they would probably have to be in a different column, which would need to be vertically aligned with an agreed-upon line of any given paragraph, which won't really work well in reflowable text, and will be hard to place using most current text processors.

tompe · 09-29-2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

Well, if I ignore the fact that it's pretty useless for academic work, I don't really mind thinking in terms of what percentage of the book I've finished. It sounds a bit off, perhaps (I'm 40% through is something you'd sooner say of something you hate or dislike than something you like), but connotations can change easy as apple pie anyway.

I think that 100 pages of 1000 pages says more directly than 10% of 1000 pages. Especially when you know how long time it takes to read one page. So I very much prefer not to use percentage.

Elfwreck · 09-29-2009, 03:55 PM

After years of reading on computer screens and then a Clié, I've come to prefer scrolling text. I prefer content where a particular line isn't going to be the top or bottom of the page, unless it's a chapter start or end and a page/screenbreak has been added. I like being able to see lines of dialogue surrounded by the other lines, rather than the first or final line of an exchange being separated out onto a different page.

I also like being able to show a passage to a friend by putting the relevant paragraph at the top of the viewing area. Like being able to scroll to a section to take notes about it, not have a large paragraph split between pages.

The Sony Reader doesn't have this, and of course I don't have a problem not reading this way. But if I had my choice, I'd prefer scrolling text.

(Also don't like page numbers that don't relate to the viewscreen, like ePub & reflowed PDFs, and don't like # of pages being used to describe length of a book. But the latter's been mentioned, and the former is a tech issue, not specific to pages.)

dmaul1114 · 09-29-2009, 04:01 PM

I hate scrolling and definitely prefer turning the "page."

The Kindle does it right with it's locations that are set regardless of text size etc. There really needs to be some set standard on locations across all e-book formats, devices etc. At least for academic books where you need to be able to cite specific page numbers--locations can do that function if they are set like on the Kindle.

ahi · 09-29-2009, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

After years of reading on computer screens and then a Clié, I've come to prefer scrolling text. I prefer content where a particular line isn't going to be the top or bottom of the page, unless it's a chapter start or end and a page/screenbreak has been added. I like being able to see lines of dialogue surrounded by the other lines, rather than the first or final line of an exchange being separated out onto a different page.

Sounds like you prefer scrolling text because eBook makers do not properly typeset their products.

- Ahi

ahi · 09-29-2009, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

I hate scrolling and definitely prefer turning the "page."

The Kindle does it right with it's locations that are set regardless of text size etc. There really needs to be some set standard on locations across all e-book formats, devices etc. At least for academic books where you need to be able to cite specific page numbers--locations can do that function if they are set like on the Kindle.

Can you explain how that works?

- Ahi

dmaul1114 · 09-29-2009, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahi

Can you explain how that works?

- Ahi

Every page has a location range listed say 1450-1455.

If you change the font size the ranges will be different (more or less per "page"). But if you select go to location 1450 it will take you to the exact place in the e-book.

The only thing that changes with changing font size is how many locations are on each "page" Location 1450 will be the same place (same word or sentence--not sure what exactly a location is) at font size 1 or font size 6.

pking36330 · 09-29-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I see a screen as a "page."

I don't like reading without them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahi

Hardy-har-har!

Ever try?
- Ahi

Would Rapid Serial Visual Presentation be a method of reading without ever displaying any pages at all?

Elfwreck · 09-29-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahi

Sounds like you prefer scrolling text because eBook makers do not properly typeset their products.

- Ahi

That too, but that's not it.

If there's a back-and-forth dialogue of eight short lines of text, I'd prefer not to have four of them on one page and four on the next. This isn't a widow/orphan problem; it's a limitation of pages. I'd certainly prefer not to have one line at the bottom of a page, and the next seven lines on the next page--and while typesetting could fix that, it could only do so by having more empty space on the page; there are limits to how much variation in content amount a page should have. (Throw one line to next page: easy; fix the leading a bit. Throw four lines to next page? Erm, now the page is going to look substantially empty.)

If there's a 300-word paragraph, I'd prefer it all be on a single page, not half on one page and half on the next. Especially if it's a paragraph of some complexity that I'll want to pause and absorb, as in detailed nonfiction writing.

Scrolling lets me keep like content together much more than page breaks do.

ahi · 09-29-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Every page has a location range listed say 1450-1455.

If you change the font size the ranges will be different (more or less per "page"). But if you select go to location 1450 it will take you to the exact place in the e-book.

The only thing that changes with changing font size is how many locations are on each "page" Location 1450 will be the same place (same word or sentence--not sure what exactly a location is) at font size 1 or font size 6.

Interesting. Maybe it's a paragraph count or something functionally similar...

That's a very clever idea, actually.

- Ahi

ahi · 09-29-2009, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

That too, but that's not it.

If there's a back-and-forth dialogue of eight short lines of text, I'd prefer not to have four of them on one page and four on the next. This isn't a widow/orphan problem; it's a limitation of pages. I'd certainly prefer not to have one line at the bottom of a page, and the next seven lines on the next page--and while typesetting could fix that, it could only do so by having more empty space on the page; there are limits to how much variation in content amount a page should have. (Throw one line to next page: easy; fix the leading a bit. Throw four lines to next page? Erm, now the page is going to look substantially empty.)

If there's a 300-word paragraph, I'd prefer it all be on a single page, not half on one page and half on the next. Especially if it's a paragraph of some complexity that I'll want to pause and absorb, as in detailed nonfiction writing.

Scrolling lets me keep like content together much more than page breaks do.

Hmmm... now that is very interesting. The most compelling argument I've read for unpaged scrolling text to date.

If I were a rich man, I'd commission a study on the subject.

- Ahi

kennyc · 09-29-2009, 04:26 PM

I enjoy having page numbers and even enjoy having the ADE page numbers in the margins.

K-Thom · 09-29-2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll#Structure

Ah, the Torah, totally forgot about its structure.

Well, I define that as "columns", you do as "pages".

Sorry, didn't mean to sound aggressive in my post. I just see an infatuation with pages which isn't inherent in most eBook formats and the way they are structured, expect, sure, the P-word format.

If you would like to call the frame of a screen within which a certain amount of text is displayed a "page", this is totally up to you. If you even need little numbers to keep you somewhat informed about the current position in the text, fine by me.

Just accept the mere possibility (I won't even call it "fact" for the sake of peace) that a text in an eBook does not have to follow the rules of one in a pBook.
That there may be indeed a new media with new rules and new settings. Which is still good-natured enough to allow each reader who can't detach himself from the restrictions of a pBook still to enjoy the very essence of reading.

Elfwreck · 09-29-2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahi

Hmmm... now that is very interesting. The most compelling argument I've read for unpaged scrolling text to date.

If I were a rich man, I'd commission a study on the subject.
- Ahi

If I were a rich woman, I'd commission a custom ebook reader that has e-ink, scrolling, and variable screen widths.

Oh, and it should crop the top & sides off PDFs so they can scroll continuously, so I get the benefit of PDF typography and the scrolling of HTML.

A study wouldn't do much good; I suspect I'm in a small niche in this matter. Well, not too small, perhaps--I read a lot of fanfic online. Which means I read a lot of novel-length stories on a single webpage, and got used to scrolling, and changing screen width based on both site layout and story content. (Long paragraphs = widen the screen a bit; short paragraphs = narrow it to remove whitespace. Highlight text before resizing screen so I can find my place. Centered paragraphs = click the back button, and find out if the story's archived somewhere else.)

fugazied · 09-29-2009, 07:21 PM

This is interesting, I had never considered how optional some of the traditional print book formatting may be on ebooks. I think the options for indexing an ebook can be much more advanced than a paper book, but you can retain chapter info and page info in the meta data to compare against the paper version. In addition you can have better options like hypertext linking between reference pages and the exact phrase on the page, custom page seperators, phrase markers etc.

Software should be able to handle hiding traditional paper page distinctions, and perhaps reading without those page seperators might mean a nicer reading experience. Sure it's non-traditional, we are all used to pages but it could be better with that kind of meta data optional/hidden.

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09-29-2009, 03:46 PM	#16
zerospinboson "Assume a can opener..." Posts: 755 Karma: 1942109 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Local Cluster Device: iLiad v2, DR1000	Well, if I ignore the fact that it's pretty useless for academic work, I don't really mind thinking in terms of what percentage of the book I've finished. It sounds a bit off, perhaps (I'm 40% through is something you'd sooner say of something you hate or dislike than something you like), but connotations can change easy as apple pie anyway. Still, paragraph numbers (and the screen space that needs to be reserved for them) are ugly, as well as fairly hard to put in, considering how they would probably have to be in a different column, which would need to be vertically aligned with an agreed-upon line of any given paragraph, which won't really work well in reflowable text, and will be hard to place using most current text processors.

09-29-2009, 03:55 PM	#18
Elfwreck Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,187 Karma: 25133758 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3 (Past: Kobo Mini, PEZ, PRS-505, Clié)	After years of reading on computer screens and then a Clié, I've come to prefer scrolling text. I prefer content where a particular line isn't going to be the top or bottom of the page, unless it's a chapter start or end and a page/screenbreak has been added. I like being able to see lines of dialogue surrounded by the other lines, rather than the first or final line of an exchange being separated out onto a different page. I also like being able to show a passage to a friend by putting the relevant paragraph at the top of the viewing area. Like being able to scroll to a section to take notes about it, not have a large paragraph split between pages. The Sony Reader doesn't have this, and of course I don't have a problem not reading this way. But if I had my choice, I'd prefer scrolling text. (Also don't like page numbers that don't relate to the viewscreen, like ePub & reflowed PDFs, and don't like # of pages being used to describe length of a book. But the latter's been mentioned, and the former is a tech issue, not specific to pages.)

09-29-2009, 04:01 PM	#19
dmaul1114 Wizard Posts: 2,300 Karma: 1121709 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Amazon Kindle 1	I hate scrolling and definitely prefer turning the "page." The Kindle does it right with it's locations that are set regardless of text size etc. There really needs to be some set standard on locations across all e-book formats, devices etc. At least for academic books where you need to be able to cite specific page numbers--locations can do that function if they are set like on the Kindle.

09-29-2009, 04:26 PM	#27
kennyc The Dank Side of the Moon Posts: 35,891 Karma: 119230421 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Denver, CO Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire	I enjoy having page numbers and even enjoy having the ADE page numbers in the margins.

09-29-2009, 07:21 PM	#30
fugazied Wizard Posts: 1,305 Karma: 1958 Join Date: Jan 2009 Device: iPod Touch	This is interesting, I had never considered how optional some of the traditional print book formatting may be on ebooks. I think the options for indexing an ebook can be much more advanced than a paper book, but you can retain chapter info and page info in the meta data to compare against the paper version. In addition you can have better options like hypertext linking between reference pages and the exact phrase on the page, custom page seperators, phrase markers etc. Software should be able to handle hiding traditional paper page distinctions, and perhaps reading without those page seperators might mean a nicer reading experience. Sure it's non-traditional, we are all used to pages but it could be better with that kind of meta data optional/hidden.

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