Badly proofed e-books - Page 2

cstross · 07-19-2009, 03:26 PM

On the subject of OCR-induced errors ...

This isn't unique to ebooks! It's not uncommon for publishers who are issuing a reprint of an old title to obtain a copy of the previous dead-tree edition, razor it, feed it to a scanner, and OCR the results -- especially if the author can't provide an up-to-date corrected electronic copy of the original manuscript with copy edits added in. (As if!)

Worst case I've heard of ...

$PUBLISHER obtains the reprint rights to Big Name Author's out-of-print novel. The office intern is given the job of checking the output from the OCR program. Thinking they're smart, rather than actually proofreading the book, the intern feeds the OCR file to Microsoft Word's spelling checker and clicks "accept" on every suggestion. The results then go to typesetting, get turned into a Quark file, and end up in print before anyone senior looks at the book and realizes what's happened. Consequence: a pulped print run. (The bit that stuck in my head: every instance of the word "soldier" had been "corrected" to "sold her".)

JSWolf · 07-19-2009, 05:47 PM

Are these books from Fictionwise multi-format eBooks? I did purchase starrigger's eBooks from Fictionwise and found a number of errors that should not have been in them. They are multi-format. So I am wondering if their multi-format system is seriously flawed.

And the first two Bean eBooks in the Honor Harrington series are a problem. On Basilisk Station has a problem with missing section breaks. Not all are missing but some definitely are and it's obvious for a lot of them. And the second one, The Honor of the Queen has section break issues as well. Instead of using the blank line spacing, they decided to use a centered * * * and I've found some (in the ePub) not centered.

All of the errors are errors that should never have been there.

And starrigger to lower the chance of your eBooks being messed up during conversion, send in a clean HTML copy (not one from Word as you'll have to spend weeks cleaning it up). It will convert better then RTF.

carld · 07-19-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

And starrigger to lower the chance of your eBooks being messed up during conversion, send in a clean HTML copy (not one from Word as you'll have to spend weeks cleaning it up). It will convert better then RTF.

What would be a good editor to use to produce a clean HTML file? I know it's definitely not Frontpage, but none of the free alternatives seem to be all that good.

Carl

starrigger · 07-19-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Are these books from Fictionwise multi-format eBooks? I did purchase starrigger's eBooks from Fictionwise and found a number of errors that should not have been in them. They are multi-format. So I am wondering if their multi-format system is seriously flawed.

And the first two Bean eBooks in the Honor Harrington series are a problem. On Basilisk Station has a problem with missing section breaks. Not all are missing but some definitely are and it's obvious for a lot of them. And the second one, The Honor of the Queen has section break issues as well. Instead of using the blank line spacing, they decided to use a centered * * * and I've found some (in the ePub) not centered.

All of the errors are errors that should never have been there.

And starrigger to lower the chance of your eBooks being messed up during conversion, send in a clean HTML copy (not one from Word as you'll have to spend weeks cleaning it up). It will convert better then RTF.

Jon, you're assuming the author has some choice in the matter, and that there's some kind of personal attention given to the books when they go through the conversion process. RTF is what they take, and it has to be formatted to fairly restrictive guidelines. There's a work flow at ereads, and after that there's a work flow at fictionwise and all the other shops. The problem is a combination of outdated mass-production conversion software, and too little attention to quality control at the retailers.

Also, what writer can afford to spend the time fine-tuning an html file for an ebook retailer? (And in truth, you can get perfectly good conversions from the RTF saved to compact html in Word. I tested my own files before they went in, and I got good ebooks. The problem was not in the files, it was in the conversion.)

And to put it in perspective, let's remember that it's a rare paper edition that doesn't come through with some typos, these days. Sometimes the typos are introduced during the final error-correction pass, as has happened to me.

ficbot · 07-20-2009, 12:13 AM

Just a clarification, I am not concerned so much with the odd typo like the quote marks; this was actual copy-editing errors in the content of the book, like Jimmy becoming Jimmie in a few places.

I emailed the author and got a very polite reply which basically said that he thanks me for writing, it is a pet peeve of his too, and the background is that editing is hard work and most e-publishers simply can't afford to hire proper people to do it. He encouraged me to keep reading because the world needs more readers

He seems like a nice guy, but I do not completely accept his explanation. If his 'publishing company' won't pay for an editor, than he needs to do what the more serious authors in the fanfiction community have been doing for years and get himself a beta reader. Perhaps he has a fan who would be willing to do a quick pass-through for him in exchange for a free copy of the book. Or perhaps, instead of writing more than 60 ebooks, he should focus on writing fewer and of higher quality. Or perhaps the ebook should be priced at a lower price point (if you are not a Fictionwise club member, it's about mass market paperback price) to reflect that we are not getting a commercial-quality product.

starrigger · 07-20-2009, 12:33 AM

Ficbot, to expect the author to fix this is like expecting Sisyphus to make it to the top of the hill. The system is simply not set up to enable authors to exert any quality control. (At least in my experience.)

It's not like they send us e-galleys, though you could argue that they should. But that's never going to work, when there are all these different formats, each requiring proofing.

Maybe if we ever shake down to one standard format, we'll have a system where the author actually gets to (and is expected to) proof the ebook.

sadowski · 07-20-2009, 01:25 AM

There seems to be a "proofing gap" for older, still copyrighted books. Distributed Proofreaders won't get them (copyrighted!) and the publishers lack resources.

I got this explicitly confirmed by a Swedish ebook provider (elib.se). At least one of their publishers (Nordstedt) choses to publish their backlist of quite well established authors as scanned images in PDF only since they lack resources to proof-read the OCR results. New books of the same authors are usually available as mobipocket etc.

/Jens

HarryT · 07-20-2009, 03:55 AM

Proofing is an extremely expensive business. If we want publishers to produce their "back catalog" as eBooks I think we have to accept that the only way many of them can afford to do so is via OCR, with the issues that that raises. Is it better to have an eBook with OCR errors, or no eBook at all?

Sparrow · 07-20-2009, 04:04 AM

I think it's reasonable to expect merely-OCRed books to be cheaper than properly proofed ones.

Some publishers seem to charge the same for both.

Laine · 07-20-2009, 05:28 AM

I find that I can handle spelling errors - after all I'm used to reading English and American books.

But there are some errors that throw me out of reader trance. I recently read a Regency Romance set in England where someone was walking along listening to the sound of the mockingbirds. There were no mockingbirds in my Observers Book of British Birds.

I think either the job of editor is being phased out or standards for emloyment (sorry employment) as editor are dropping.

Sweetpea · 07-20-2009, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laine

I find that I can handle spelling errors - after all I'm used to reading English and American books.

But there are some errors that throw me out of reader trance. I recently read a Regency Romance set in England where someone was walking along listening to the sound of the mockingbirds. There were no mockingbirds in my Observers Book of British Birds.

I think either the job of editor is being phased out or standards for emloyment as editor are dropping.

Is it the job of the editor to remove such things? You'll need a brilliant editor then, somebody who knows everything....

I've not had a badly proofed book (yet), only one book I have does have a chapter at the wrong location (at the end of the book). (and some minor spelling mistakes, which I also find in the printed books)

Sparrow · 07-20-2009, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laine

But there are some errors that throw me out of reader trance. I recently read a Regency Romance set in England where someone was walking along listening to the sound of the mockingbirds. There were no mockingbirds in my Observers Book of British Birds.

The sedge warbler is sometimes called a mockingbird in England.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Mocking-bird

(Although I don't know if that was the case during the Regency period.)

Laine · 07-20-2009, 05:53 AM

Yes, I think it is the editor's job. Stephanie Laurens' editor won't let her use the word animadversions in her books but Nicola Cornick can.

Another author had schrapnel in her book but was told to remove it as it didn't exist at the time in which the novel was set.

I would think that editors would probably specialise in certain types of books.

HarryT · 07-20-2009, 06:50 AM

It is "jarring" when authors use inappropriate words in books. Eg, much as I love reading Elizabeth Peters' "Amelia Peabody" detective books, it is extremely irritating to hear an English character use words like "railroad" instead of the English "railway". A little research would prevent such obvious errors.

Jellby · 07-20-2009, 07:23 AM

I love it in "The Pillars of Earth" when a man takes a "fat pig" under his arm and runs away:

Quote:

The outlaw looked away from Tom and fixed his gaze on the pig. In a flash he
bent down, picked it up, tucked the squirming animal under his arm and darted
back into the tangled undergrowth

It must have been a pigmy pig, and not something like this

07-20-2009, 03:55 AM	#23
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,556 Karma: 93980341 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Proofing is an extremely expensive business. If we want publishers to produce their "back catalog" as eBooks I think we have to accept that the only way many of them can afford to do so is via OCR, with the issues that that raises. Is it better to have an eBook with OCR errors, or no eBook at all? Last edited by HarryT; 07-20-2009 at 04:06 AM.

07-20-2009, 05:28 AM	#25
Laine Addict Posts: 341 Karma: 1162396 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cabramatta, Sydney, Australia Device: Aura H2O, Voyage	I find that I can handle spelling errors - after all I'm used to reading English and American books. But there are some errors that throw me out of reader trance. I recently read a Regency Romance set in England where someone was walking along listening to the sound of the mockingbirds. There were no mockingbirds in my Observers Book of British Birds. I think either the job of editor is being phased out or standards for emloyment (sorry employment) as editor are dropping. Last edited by Laine; 07-20-2009 at 05:30 AM. Reason: older laptop with sticky keys

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07-19-2009, 03:26 PM	#16
cstross Cynic Posts: 86 Karma: 514 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Device: Lots, started with a Psion 3 circa 1998	On the subject of OCR-induced errors ... This isn't unique to ebooks! It's not uncommon for publishers who are issuing a reprint of an old title to obtain a copy of the previous dead-tree edition, razor it, feed it to a scanner, and OCR the results -- especially if the author can't provide an up-to-date corrected electronic copy of the original manuscript with copy edits added in. (As if!) Worst case I've heard of ... $PUBLISHER obtains the reprint rights to Big Name Author's out-of-print novel. The office intern is given the job of checking the output from the OCR program. Thinking they're smart, rather than actually proofreading the book, the intern feeds the OCR file to Microsoft Word's spelling checker and clicks "accept" on every suggestion. The results then go to typesetting, get turned into a Quark file, and end up in print before anyone senior looks at the book and realizes what's happened. Consequence: a pulped print run. (The bit that stuck in my head: every instance of the word "soldier" had been "corrected" to "sold her".)

07-19-2009, 05:47 PM	#17
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,798 Karma: 146391129 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	Are these books from Fictionwise multi-format eBooks? I did purchase starrigger's eBooks from Fictionwise and found a number of errors that should not have been in them. They are multi-format. So I am wondering if their multi-format system is seriously flawed. And the first two Bean eBooks in the Honor Harrington series are a problem. On Basilisk Station has a problem with missing section breaks. Not all are missing but some definitely are and it's obvious for a lot of them. And the second one, The Honor of the Queen has section break issues as well. Instead of using the blank line spacing, they decided to use a centered * * * and I've found some (in the ePub) not centered. All of the errors are errors that should never have been there. And starrigger to lower the chance of your eBooks being messed up during conversion, send in a clean HTML copy (not one from Word as you'll have to spend weeks cleaning it up). It will convert better then RTF.

07-20-2009, 12:13 AM	#20
ficbot Wizard Posts: 2,409 Karma: 4132096 Join Date: Sep 2008 Device: Kindle Paperwhite/iOS Kindle App	Just a clarification, I am not concerned so much with the odd typo like the quote marks; this was actual copy-editing errors in the content of the book, like Jimmy becoming Jimmie in a few places. I emailed the author and got a very polite reply which basically said that he thanks me for writing, it is a pet peeve of his too, and the background is that editing is hard work and most e-publishers simply can't afford to hire proper people to do it. He encouraged me to keep reading because the world needs more readers He seems like a nice guy, but I do not completely accept his explanation. If his 'publishing company' won't pay for an editor, than he needs to do what the more serious authors in the fanfiction community have been doing for years and get himself a beta reader. Perhaps he has a fan who would be willing to do a quick pass-through for him in exchange for a free copy of the book. Or perhaps, instead of writing more than 60 ebooks, he should focus on writing fewer and of higher quality. Or perhaps the ebook should be priced at a lower price point (if you are not a Fictionwise club member, it's about mass market paperback price) to reflect that we are not getting a commercial-quality product.

07-20-2009, 12:33 AM	#21
starrigger Jeffrey A. Carver Posts: 1,355 Karma: 1107383 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Massachusetts, USA Device: Lenovo Yoga Tab Plus, Droid phone, Nook HD+	Ficbot, to expect the author to fix this is like expecting Sisyphus to make it to the top of the hill. The system is simply not set up to enable authors to exert any quality control. (At least in my experience.) It's not like they send us e-galleys, though you could argue that they should. But that's never going to work, when there are all these different formats, each requiring proofing. Maybe if we ever shake down to one standard format, we'll have a system where the author actually gets to (and is expected to) proof the ebook.

07-20-2009, 01:25 AM	#22
sadowski Connoisseur Posts: 84 Karma: 1142796 Join Date: Jul 2009 Device: Sony PRS 350, Kobo mini, PB mini	There seems to be a "proofing gap" for older, still copyrighted books. Distributed Proofreaders won't get them (copyrighted!) and the publishers lack resources. I got this explicitly confirmed by a Swedish ebook provider (elib.se). At least one of their publishers (Nordstedt) choses to publish their backlist of quite well established authors as scanned images in PDF only since they lack resources to proof-read the OCR results. New books of the same authors are usually available as mobipocket etc. /Jens

07-20-2009, 04:04 AM	#24
Sparrow Wizard Posts: 4,395 Karma: 1358132 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Device: Palm TX, CyBook Gen3	I think it's reasonable to expect merely-OCRed books to be cheaper than properly proofed ones. Some publishers seem to charge the same for both.

07-20-2009, 05:53 AM	#28
Laine Addict Posts: 341 Karma: 1162396 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cabramatta, Sydney, Australia Device: Aura H2O, Voyage	Yes, I think it is the editor's job. Stephanie Laurens' editor won't let her use the word animadversions in her books but Nicola Cornick can. Another author had schrapnel in her book but was told to remove it as it didn't exist at the time in which the novel was set. I would think that editors would probably specialise in certain types of books.

07-20-2009, 06:50 AM	#29
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,556 Karma: 93980341 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	It is "jarring" when authors use inappropriate words in books. Eg, much as I love reading Elizabeth Peters' "Amelia Peabody" detective books, it is extremely irritating to hear an English character use words like "railroad" instead of the English "railway". A little research would prevent such obvious errors.

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