the metaphysics of Epub

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Why not? Can't you use font-family to specify serif vs sans-serif vs mono?

You got me!

I was thinking of that while I was writing my message, but decided it was not worth mentioning it

Yes, specifying generic font families is fine, nothing wrong with that (do current ePUB readers provide a complete set of these families, anyway?). My point was that a particular font face should not be used if it's not embedded, because there's no guarantee the readers will have that font, or even the possibility of installing it (or at least, the creator should assume that many readers will not see the intended font).

P.S. I've been often told that I always want to have the last word, so I apologize it if looks like I'm arguing for the sake of argument, it seem's it's just my way

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Jellby

You got me!

I was thinking of that while I was writing my message, but decided it was not worth mentioning it

Yes, specifying generic font families is fine, nothing wrong with that (do current ePUB readers provide a complete set of these families, anyway?). My point was that a particular font face should not be used if it's not embedded, because there's no guarantee the readers will have that font, or even the possibility of installing it (or at least, the creator should assume that many readers will not see the intended font).

P.S. I've been often told that I always want to have the last word, so I apologize it if looks like I'm arguing for the sake of argument, it seem's it's just my way

You should be able to list several fonts in the font CSS entry. A generic font should always be listed as the last choice so that something will be found. Of course some implementations ignore a list and default to their own default.

Dale

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Jellby

You got me!

I was thinking of that while I was writing my message, but decided it was not worth mentioning it

Yes, specifying generic font families is fine, nothing wrong with that (do current ePUB readers provide a complete set of these families, anyway?). My point was that a particular font face should not be used if it's not embedded, because there's no guarantee the readers will have that font, or even the possibility of installing it (or at least, the creator should assume that many readers will not see the intended font).

When I use CSS code to specify specific fonts, I do this for my own use and do not have to add he font files to the ePub.. If I am going to embed for others, I will embed in the ePub file itself.

I did take a recently converted ePub and specify that the headers should use the default sans-serif font and it worked perfectly.

[brewt]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Indeed, font embedding is almost trivial, one need only include the font files in the package and add the @font-face CSS instructions.

Now, whether automatic ePUB creation programs and ePUB readers support font embedding, that's another matter.

Must be my sense of lazy that makes it so hard. Indesign'll embed JaneAusten.ttf as part of the package, and that's still about all it does "easily". Check the embed fonts box, and they are there in the resultant epub. Maybe I'm just inept, but I can't get mobicreator to do that.

I've been holding my breath for Calibre to do that, 'cause I just hate handbuilding the epub, 'cause then I have to be intelligent, thoughtful, and responsible. Yuck.

-bjc

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by brewt

Must be my sense of lazy that makes it so hard. Indesign'll embed JaneAusten.ttf as part of the package, and that's still about all it does "easily". Check the embed fonts box, and they are there in the resultant epub. Maybe I'm just inept, but I can't get mobicreator to do that.

I've been holding my breath for Calibre to do that, 'cause I just hate handbuilding the epub, 'cause then I have to be intelligent, thoughtful, and responsible. Yuck.

-bjc

I don't think you can embed fonts in a Mobipocket file. So far as I can tell, it uses the ones in the /fonts folder.

[brewt]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

I don't think you can embed fonts in a Mobipocket file. So far as I can tell, it uses the ones in the /fonts folder.

My experience as well - if the font is there, I can call it. But if it's not on the device, well, that's too bad.

Hence, the epub advantage. So many pretty things, so little.......

-bjc

[ondabeach]

You can embed music and video files in an ePUB. The reader just needs to support it, and that's easy.

[netseeker]

Originally Posted by ondabeach

You can embed music and video files in an ePUB. The reader just needs to support it, and that's easy.

Yes and additionally there is another important point: The ePub specification allows the usage of DTBook which was designed explicitly with visually impaired, physically handicapped, learning-disabled or otherwise print-disabled readers in mind. It's up to the manufacturers of ePub-reading systems to support that in a useable manner. Imho most current devices offer most (if not all) necessary features but most ePub-reading systems don't use it.

[Gaurav]

I think ePub has everything which makes it a leader in ebook formats. The making and navigating an epub file is simple as compared to other formats. Also it become a standard for ebook formats. Below are some features which makes epub standout from other formats:
- Linked Footnotes – each footnote number is a link, click on this to see the footnote. Click on the same number to go back to your original page.
- Nicely formatted titles, subtitles, etc.
- Paragraph indents – Except on first paragraph of a chapter/section (more paper book like)
- Block Indents – Small left/right indents on block quotes, letters of correspondence, songs, etc.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Gaurav

I think ePub has everything which makes it a leader in ebook formats. The making and navigating an epub file is simple as compared to other formats. Also it become a standard for ebook formats. Below are some features which makes epub standout from other formats:
- Linked Footnotes – each footnote number is a link, click on this to see the footnote. Click on the same number to go back to your original page.
- Nicely formatted titles, subtitles, etc.
- Paragraph indents – Except on first paragraph of a chapter/section (more paper book like)
- Block Indents – Small left/right indents on block quotes, letters of correspondence, songs, etc.

But you can do all those thins in Mobipocket.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

But you can do all those thins in Mobipocket.

Are you sure? Linked footnotes that link back automatically?, indents on all but the first paragraph of a chapter?

Dale

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Are you sure? Linked footnotes that link back automatically?, indents on all but the first paragraph of a chapter?

Just as well as with ePUB. At least I do them basically the same way.

Footnotes (in mobipocket HTML):

Blah, <a name="note1b"/>blah blah<a href="#note1">[1]</a>. Blah
...
...
<a name="note1"/>
<p>[1] This is a footnote</p>
<a href="#note1b">(Back)</a>

Indents (in mobipocket HTML):

<h1>Chapter 1</h1>
<p width="0em">The first pararagraph.</p>
<p>The second paragraph.</p>
<p>The third, etc.</p>

PS. Note that not having indent in the first paragraph of a chapter or section is not the custom in all languages, so I'm glad ebook formats don't are too MS-paperclip-smart

[pepak]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Are you sure? Linked footnotes that link back automatically?,

That doesn't exist in EPUB either. There is no such tag.

indents on all but the first paragraph of a chapter?

Sure.

---

My main gripe with EPUB is that it, just like many of its predecessors, tries to provide an universal format - something that would satisfy all possible needs, work on all possible devices etc. In my opinion, that's a sure way to fail - the needs (and the devices) are so variable that one format can't possibly satisfy them all (e.g. with EPUB, we can talk fonts - I can either choose to use device-default fonts or one particular embedded font, but I can't choose to use a device-font on one device AND an embedded-font on another). I am still convinced that the proper way is to provide one "storage format" and then convert it to device-dependent form before use.

[JSWolf]

One thing that makes ePub a winner is the ability to edit the book without having to decompile. Every other format is a binary format and you cannot edit without first converting, making the changes and then recompiling.

[brewt]

Attached are some things to demonstrate footnotes/endnotes and hanging indents in both mobi & epub.
Epub & mobi made from Calibre
prc made from mobicreator
zipped source html made with nothing short of Pure Unadulterated Evil.
Epub made with Indesign.

Making those things work depend on what you use to write the source file (Go Evil!), the creator software and the reading software you use to look at it. ZuluReader, for example, doesn't do the hyperlinking, and still seems to be stripping out most formatting (at least, the ones I know how to use).
Seems to read ok in ADE and Mobi and Calibre readers.

The Indesign-created file is problematic. The hyperlinks created in Word are stripped. Not to mention some of the cool style tricks (like forcing a page at the chapter) and lines go away, etc. And I haven't sorted out hyperlinking in IDcs4v603 yet, seems hard. Fonts are embedded ok.

-bjc