cross-referencing in an EPUB?

[Pierre Lawrence]

I uploaded the file for a novella I wrote, in odt converted to docx, to Draft2Digital for distribution to retailers for sale. As part of their service D2D provides downloadable files of your book in epub, mobi and pdf format. I tested the downloaded epub with Adobe Digital Editions, and it read fine, including the cover. Thinking mobi was still Amazon's proprietary format, I tested the mobi file with the Kindle Previewer, and was surprised to see the mobi converted to epub. It also read fine, including the cover. I tested the pdf file with Adobe Acrobat, and alas the cover was missing (apparently it wasn't included in the downloaded file.) As discussed in another thread I added the cover using Adobe's editor, which compared to any text editor/word processor I have ever used was unbelievably hard to use - even for a task as simple as adding an image to the file. Thinking I might have a need to edit the text some day, I tried that but gave up, it was so difficult.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Pierre Lawrence

I uploaded the file for a novella I wrote, in odt converted to docx, to Draft2Digital for distribution to retailers for sale. As part of their service D2D provides downloadable files of your book in epub, mobi and pdf format. I tested the downloaded epub with Adobe Digital Editions, and it read fine, including the cover. Thinking mobi was still Amazon's proprietary format, I tested the mobi file with the Kindle Previewer, and was surprised to see the mobi converted to epub. It also read fine, including the cover. I tested the pdf file with Adobe Acrobat, and alas the cover was missing (apparently it wasn't included in the downloaded file.) As discussed in another thread I added the cover using Adobe's editor, which compared to any text editor/word processor I have ever used was unbelievably hard to use - even for a task as simple as adding an image to the file. Thinking I might have a need to edit the text some day, I tried that but gave up, it was so difficult.

Hi, Pierre:

I guess my question would be, what...to what use is the PDF being put? It's likely not a print layout, right? It's basically an ePDF? Is that a free on-your-site giveaway, or?

It's not hard to add a page, or a cover image, etc. to a PDF. I'm not sure what editor you used that was hard, but in Acrobat (DC, Pro), you can simply select "organize pages" and add a page.

What it will NOT do for you, though, is renumber the pages, if you are inserting a page somewhere that affects that. When you add a cover, of course, it doesn't, as the cover is not counted as part of the interior. But if you were to add (say) a page after page 15, in your interior, that could muck things up.

Hope that helps.

Hitch

[Pierre Lawrence]

Hitch -

The example you cited – the Adobe editor's (the pro version's) inability to repaginate a fixed format file, Adobe's own format, after adding a page renders it instantly useless. Just as bad, simple operations like deleting and adding text, cutting and pasting you take for granted with any competent text editor I found so daunting with the Adobe editor I gave up on them. That a company as prominent as Adobe would offer such a user-hostile product and charge a fee for it I found astonishing.


As to the cover problem, I first tried to solve it by adding the cover jpeg to the original odt text file (one click does it) using Open Office, and converting the modified file to pdf. It worked, but I wasn't satisfied with the appearance, and finally arrived at the fix discussed elsewhere for the pdf file downloaded from D2D. That file, viewed on the SumatraPDF pdf viewer, was much the best from an appearance standpoint compared to the mob/epub versions viewed on either the Kindle Previewer or Adobe Digital Editions.


As you surmised, I went to all this trouble to offer my novella for free to members of Library Thing (of which there are about 2.5 million, according to the site), in return for a review of the piece. Every month, through its “early reviewers” feature, LT allows authors to offer as many as 30 free copies of their book to readers in return for a review. For established authors, reader requests far exceed the copies available, typically numbering in the hundreds. I offered 30 copies of my piece as part of LT's “May 2022 Batch,” and received 37 reader requests for copies, of which only 8 were granted by the site administrator for various reasons. To these readers I emailed my ebook in all three formats, as none of the requestors specified which format he or she preferred. Four of the reviewers responded with reviews, three favorable and one not so favorable. One of the favorable reviewers was kind enough to post the review on Amazon.


What effect the reviews will have on sales of the piece remains to be seen. They have been disappointing so far, and it may be that “psychic income” will be all that I ever receive from the effort (the connection I made with the reader who left the glowing review on Amazon, who “got” what I was attempting to do with the piece, made my day).


- Pierre Lawrence

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Pierre Lawrence

Hitch -

Yeeees???

The example you cited – the Adobe editor's (the pro version's) inability to repaginate a fixed format file, Adobe's own format, after adding a page renders it instantly useless. Just as bad, simple operations like deleting and adding text, cutting and pasting you take for granted with any competent text editor I found so daunting with the Adobe editor I gave up on them. That a company as prominent as Adobe would offer such a user-hostile product and charge a fee for it I found astonishing.

But, Pierre--it's NOT a text editor. I'm not sure what makes you think that it is, or that Adobe even really markets it that way. It's not a word processor. Given what PDF is--why it exists, how it's made, what it does, etc.--it's pretty boggling that any form of editing exists in the first place.

I mean, hell--take any modern PDF and open it in (current) Word. MSFT claims that it "edits PDFs." Go ahead--see what happens.

I don't give a crap what anybody says--you take a modern PDF, which has not one but two layers--the bottom of which is basically a series of images, of the pages created, and the top, which is a text layer--and then expect it to magically edit (I'm not saying this harshly to you, but this sort of thing, request, expectation, is something I see daily and it irks me)...well. That's just, let us say, HIGHLY unlikely. PDF is a remarkably complex thing, in its own right.

I have a little analogy I say, to people--I tell them that making a Word file is like making a stew--they can add as many ingredients as they want, change it, modify it, add this, etc. and it's still stew and (from the time the meat is cooked, anyway) it's editable at all stages.

But a PDF is like a cake. You take your ingredients (source files), mix 'em together and put it in a pan (PDF distiller/engine). It's baked (Source-->PDF) and then, if you don't like the cake, you have to make another one. You can't "fix" the already-baked cake, right? The cake (PDF) is the result of ingredients and processes. So too is the PDF--the result of your source files and your export-to-PDF or save-to-PDF, etc. processes.

It's baking, not cooking. (Finished document production, not word processing.)

PDF is like cake, no matter who tells you what marketing drivel. It's not a big deal--you just regenerate the (new) PDF from the (revised) source. Now, if you don't have the source, that's unfortunate, but--that's not the fault of the PDF, or the creators thereof, now, is it?

(Here endeth the cooking lesson.)

As to the cover problem, I first tried to solve it by adding the cover jpeg to the original odt text file (one click does it) using Open Office, and converting the modified file to pdf. It worked, but I wasn't satisfied with the appearance, and finally arrived at the fix discussed elsewhere for the pdf file downloaded from D2D. That file, viewed on the SumatraPDF pdf viewer, was much the best from an appearance standpoint compared to the mob/epub versions viewed on either the Kindle Previewer or Adobe Digital Editions.

Okay? I'm not sure why we're talking about that, but...I'm glad you found a solution.

As you surmised, I went to all this trouble to offer my novella for free to members of Library Thing (of which there are about 2.5 million, according to the site), in return for a review of the piece. Every month, through its “early reviewers” feature, LT allows authors to offer as many as 30 free copies of their book to readers in return for a review. For established authors, reader requests far exceed the copies available, typically numbering in the hundreds. I offered 30 copies of my piece as part of LT's “May 2022 Batch,” and received 37 reader requests for copies, of which only 8 were granted by the site administrator for various reasons. To these readers I emailed my ebook in all three formats, as none of the requestors specified which format he or she preferred. Four of the reviewers responded with reviews, three favorable and one not so favorable. One of the favorable reviewers was kind enough to post the review on Amazon.

Okay. Yes, if you're sending files directly, as you did, for whatever reason, then (most) Kindle users will need a MOBI file for the moment. That moment is passing, however. BTW, did you know that if you send a MOBI file to a Kindle for iPad user, they will not see the eBook the way it's intended? They should use AZK--but honestly, they're better off receiving the PDF. Using AZK would make them go through an entire Goat Rodeo that nobody should have to go through.

What effect the reviews will have on sales of the piece remains to be seen. They have been disappointing so far, and it may be that “psychic income” will be all that I ever receive from the effort (the connection I made with the reader who left the glowing review on Amazon, who “got” what I was attempting to do with the piece, made my day).


- Pierre Lawrence

Well, psychic income ain't bad. With regard to filthy lucre, the reality is, 99.98% of all authors, of all sizes, shapes and stripes, never earn more than pocket change or maybe even (wowzers) grocery money from their writing endeavors.

Hitch

[Quoth]

If even as much income as that.

PDFs are an end result that should be regarded as set concrete. The cake analogy is good. The material used to create a PDF is the editable source. The Adobe tool is pointless.

Edit in Word or LO Writer and simply export a ready to go PDF.
LO Writer can Save As in many editable formats. PDF is an export, a one way trip.

Oh and Open Office is dead maybe ten years. Libre Office is the current alternative to MS Word.

Workflow
Edit and proof a version (in ODT if using Writer) with no headers, no footer, styled headings and paragraphs on a small 4:3 aspect page size, so you can see if layout is stupid. Avoid tables and don't flow text round images. Anchor images as characters with no text on same line. Do extra Save As in docx for Calibre or MS Word. No extra spaces, tabs or blank lines. Use styles. Avoid tables.

Only import a docx to LO Writer, never use that as edit-save-edit version as it will convert on import and convert on save only edit in odt. Save As an EXTRA copy in docx when proofed.

Use Calibre (or sigil) to make an epub. Make any other format of ebook (NOT a PDF from the epub2, inc epub3 if wanted. Only send epub to KDP or Google Play. Epub and dual Mobi to Smashwords, never doc but they don't convert well.

You might need to look at CSS of images. Big ones might be a % width and height auto. All paragraph and heading styles will map perfectly in Calibre from docx styles to CSS.

Then Save As your final odt as a different name with page size suffix and set page size to desired size of PDF. Add headers, footers, page numbers etc. If for paper have Left & Right pages (or Mirrored) with a suitable inner margin for binding.
Save odt (unless in Word, then docx).
EXPORT the PDF.
Preview PDF on a big enough screen or 10" tablet or 10" eink.
Edit the wordprocessor doc if need be.
Add a cover if ePDF, NEVER for POD (paper). Real books use separate wrap file which is front, spine and back. The POD site will offer a cover template based on number of pages and paper thickness. This can be calculated.

Save the versions of odt (or doc) of file for epub and pdf as templates after deleting most of the content.

Never edit the content of the wordprocessor file for Export as PDF, only paragraph, heading and page styles. Edit the version for epub for changes. You can copy and paste entire odt (or Docx if Word) contents into the PDF wordprocessor source and may only need to change to change a few page styles.

PDF is a baked cake.

[Pierre Lawrence]

Hitch's and Quoth's posts are certainly the last word on the subject and much appreciated, but I do take issue with Hitch's assertion that Adobe's editor is not a text editor, and her apparent bewilderment as to why I would think “that Adobe even really markets it that way.” While not referring to it as a text editor as such, Adobe offers an upgrade to Acrobat that conveys the same functionality.

If you boot up Acrobat, for example, and click on the “Edit PDF” button in the right-hand panel a window will come up telling you if you upgrade to Acrobat Pro, you can “easily make text changes, add or replace images, and insert new text in your PDF.” Clicking on “learn more” advises you that you can “keep the good times rolling” by subscribing to Acrobat Pro for about $180 per year, payable monthly. Sounds like marketing to me.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Pierre Lawrence

Hitch's and Quoth's posts are certainly the last word on the subject and much appreciated, but I do take issue with Hitch's assertion that Adobe's editor is not a text editor, and her apparent bewilderment as to why I would think “that Adobe even really markets it that way.” While not referring to it as a text editor as such, Adobe offers an upgrade to Acrobat that conveys the same functionality.

I don't know your experience or background with regular, everyday office-productivity tools, like word processors, spreadsheets, text editors, etc., but, please see my comments below the succeeding paragraph:

If you boot up Acrobat, for example, and click on the “Edit PDF” button in the right-hand panel a window will come up telling you if you upgrade to Acrobat Pro, you can “easily make text changes, add or replace images, and insert new text in your PDF.” Clicking on “learn more” advises you that you can “keep the good times rolling” by subscribing to Acrobat Pro for about $180 per year, payable monthly. Sounds like marketing to me.

Sure, they market it as "easily mak[ing] text changes" and all that rot. But let me ask you this:

Do you open up Acrobat DC, or Pro, to a blank page? Ever? Is there a "file-->New" (or equivalent) on the main menu? Do you type in it, like you would from Word, Libre Office, Open Office, etc.? Do you start in it, from scratch, create a new document and use DC (et al) for the entire process?

Or, do you you pretty much always--always--have to select a pre-existing file? One that has already been baked, by some other piece of software? (n.b.: you can in fact, create a new blank file. But notice that this option is the last option, in Acrobat's "EDIT" PDF tool box.

Other than what amounts to basically one line of text, in Adobe's marketing blather, there really isn't anything at all that says "make huge changes to your documents, like a word processor, using DC." There just isn't. If you look at even their blather (promo and Help) pages, everything is focused on manipulating, scanning, signing, existing PDFs.

Sure, they tout the "edit PDF" functionality--but didja ever notice that in all their examples, cool-looking mobile screenshots, etc. all they show is someone changing 1-2 words, tops? You don't see an entire paragraph being revised. You certainly damn sure don't see text across paragraphs being revised.

And in all that--all the stuff, everywhere, that Acrobat puts out, no where, no place, does it call DC a "text editor" or a "word processor." Because it just isn't.

My final comment about this, is: I use this professionally and commercially, daily. Not even just once a day, but probably, all in, 5-12x daily, for different files, books, documents, yadda. And you can, actually, do everything that you've mentioned--like renumbering pages and all that--but it's painful to do. You can "update" running heads and footers, but....half the time, it doesn't really work. Or it's better/faster to do it manually.

I also want to add that DC has functions that pretty much nothing else has, and it does those well. We tend to see/receive a TON of jpgs, from would-be children's book authors, uncompiled, and if you have DC, you can very easily take those pages, convert them (quickly) to PDF and then assemble them, using drag-drop or click and click again, into a full, final, PDF document. You can assemble PDFs, into a single document, or take a PDF and carve it into smaller documents. There are myriad things, in DC, that you can do, when you have nothing else but an extant PDF, or would-be source files that have not yet been put into their proper form.

The primary functions around DC are, make changes to, revise, split, join, etc. existing PDF documents---when you don't have access to the source therefor. 99% of the time, if I had the source files for most of the stuff I do, in DC, to PDFs, I wouldn't be using DC. I would make those changes in Photoshop, AI, InDesign, Word, etc.

PDF is the end result of a process. Unlike DOCX or .ODT, .pages, etc. in which the document is created initially--you then type in it or copy-paste, scan, do whatever the hell you're doing and when you hit SAVE, the document is still a DOCX, ODT, .pages, etc. document (stew!). PDF is the cake. And, sure, if you make a cake and leave out the sugar (my late FIL once made pumpkin pies and forgot the sugar...not kidding), you can try to add sugar to it, as a baked good, as you wish, but it's futile and never tastes right. It would be cheaper and less brain-damaging to just remake the damned pie. And that is the reality with PDFs--they are designed, intentionally, to be amenable to minor edits, post-production (although, from a production standpoint, this is a terrible idea--where is your Master File, then????), but for anything significant, for a host of reasons, it's better to go BACK to your master file, make the changes there and simply reissue the newly exported PDF.

Not to mention, above all else--it's FASTER. There is almost nothing you can do, in "edit PDF," In Acrobat DC Standard or Pro, that is not FASTER in Word, LO, Atlantis, Pages, etc.

That's the point I'm trying to make. If you want to be furious with Adobe, for misleading you around their marketing cruft, can't blame you--but they really don't, anywhere, say it's a Text Editor or Word processor.

Hitch

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Pierre Lawrence

If you boot up Acrobat, for example, and click on the “Edit PDF” button in the right-hand panel a window will come up telling you if you upgrade to Acrobat Pro, you can “easily make text changes, add or replace images, and insert new text in your PDF.” Clicking on “learn more” advises you that you can “keep the good times rolling” by subscribing to Acrobat Pro for about $180 per year, payable monthly. Sounds like marketing to me.

It's marketing. It's pointless. As Hitch wrote, a PDF is a baked cake. Or Rock bun.

Or as the guy asking directions was told, "Well, sir, if I was to be going there I wouldn't start from here."

Forget about editing PDFs. Acrobat Viewer (basic) is a not great PDF viewer (there is a spec and other people do better viewers). Acrobat Pro is really just a stupidly expensive tool to make PDFs from other resources. It's not going to easily let you edit some random PDF.

There is a PDF format that can include a source document, obviously Acrobat Pro really edits that and makes a new PDF.

Forget Adobe.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

It's marketing. It's pointless. As Hitch wrote, a PDF is a baked cake. Or Rock bun.

Or as the guy asking directions was told, "Well, sir, if I was to be going there I wouldn't start from here."

Forget about editing PDFs. Acrobat Viewer (basic) is a not great PDF viewer (there is a spec and other people do better viewers). Acrobat Pro is really just a stupidly expensive tool to make PDFs from other resources. It's not going to easily let you edit some random PDF.

There is a PDF format that can include a source document, obviously Acrobat Pro really edits that and makes a new PDF.

Forget Adobe.

Well, as much as I love Quoth, I do have to say, in my line of work, I use Adobe products daily. Hell, all day long, every day. They are uniquely situated and frankly, in terms of print production, simply the best. Is GIMP, which is free, a worthy Photoshop replacement? Possibly. Is Affinity Photo a worthy PHSP replacement? Damn near, yes. Is Affinity Designer a good replacement for Illustrator? Apparently...and so on.

But the reality is, nothing is close to InDesign. Even Affinity Publisher isn't, as you can't export ePUBs or even HTML worth a damn. For me, that's unlivable. Can INDD, all by its lonesome, do "everything"? No, not in my opinion--you need Word or Libre Office (not even pages can do everything that they can). If you want indexing, bygod, you want Word or LO. Otherwise, severe mental disability ensues.

Just saying. An app for everything and everything in its place. Acrobat DC Pro does have some functions that are pretty killer, again, IF IF IF you are in the commercial production biz. Are there PDF-making/editing/manipulating apps out there that are as good, or better? So I'm told, but I haven't tried any in my recent memory. (Full disclosure--it's been at least...12 years since I tried a competitor, so...anything is possible.)

Just...use these apps for what they are BEST at. Don't try to make a cake with a cookie sheet and a batter that's a gooey, pourable mess.

That's my $.02, or at this point, $.05.

Hitch

[Quoth]

Well, Hitch, your main business is formatting, so it makes sense. But unless your work is paying for Adobe products they don't make sense.

, IF IF IF you are in the commercial production biz.

Ha! I stopped using Adobe products about 12 years go!
Also I switched from Paint Shop Pro7 to The GIMP about 6 years ago and it was a painful learning curve. Originally had been using an Aldus product (Adobe bought them and killed it, maybe Photostyler on Windows 3.1).

There is a huge amount to be said for using the products you are familiar with.

Twenty years ago MS Word and an export Plug in for PDF was poor, a PDF virtual "Printer" to file worked better and let you combine pages from different programs. That's still an option if you can't put all your source in MS Word (told PDF is OK now, but not used it since Word 2002) or LO Writer.

If doing magazines or newpapers or complex text books I'd not go back to the DTP programs I last used over 15 years ago. I'd consider Indesign. LO Writer, though it has columns and perfect PDF export isn't quite there for that yet. It's close now.

Similarly some people use Excel and think Excel is the solution for everything (or Powerpoint), but often they need a programmer and database application.

You could make a website with Notepad, and long ago that was the only option. Now you'd be mad.

So Hitch is right, use the appropriate application(s) for your work flow and the kind of business it is. Not all writers can learn to do ebook or paper book production. Different skills and experience. Not many years ago no writer, even self publishing (rather than vanity publishing), would have considered creating ebooks or paperback books themselves and some still need to pay an expert (don't look at me, my son's MSS cured me of it for hire).

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Well, Hitch, your main business is formatting, so it makes sense. But unless your work is paying for Adobe products they don't make sense.


Ha! I stopped using Adobe products about 12 years go!
Also I switched from Paint Shop Pro7 to The GIMP about 6 years ago and it was a painful learning curve. Originally had been using an Aldus product (Adobe bought them and killed it, maybe Photostyler on Windows 3.1).

If Affinity would expand their HTML/ePUB capabilities, I would seriously consider migrating. Now, that being said, we do a TON of INDD->ePUB work, so I shouldn't be able to get rid of Adobe altogether, anwway.

There is a huge amount to be said for using the products you are familiar with.

Yes, that too.

Twenty years ago MS Word and an export Plug in for PDF was poor, a PDF virtual "Printer" to file worked better and let you combine pages from different programs. That's still an option if you can't put all your source in MS Word (told PDF is OK now, but not used it since Word 2002) or LO Writer.

It was, in a word, horrible.

If doing magazines or newpapers or complex text books I'd not go back to the DTP programs I last used over 15 years ago. I'd consider Indesign. LO Writer, though it has columns and perfect PDF export isn't quite there for that yet. It's close now.

I freely admit that LO Writer is very good, but there are some functions that INDD just does better. Look at something like Typefitter5. You can't get that for anything else, anywhere, any time.

Similarly some people use Excel and think Excel is the solution for everything (or Powerpoint), but often they need a programmer and database application.

Did you read about the book I received, to quote, typed 100% in excel? Saints preserve us...I'm still torn between crying or laughing about it.

You could make a website with Notepad, and long ago that was the only option. Now you'd be mad.

Or really, really, really bored. Or Tex! Calling Tex2002ans....

So Hitch is right, use the appropriate application(s) for your work flow and the kind of business it is. Not all writers can learn to do ebook or paper book production. Different skills and experience. Not many years ago no writer, even self publishing (rather than vanity publishing), would have considered creating ebooks or paperback books themselves and some still need to pay an expert (don't look at me, my son's MSS cured me of it for hire).

It ain't genius. I don't try to whisk cream/milk for yogurt with a spoon, either, rather than a whisk. Use the right tool, right job. Very simple stuff. Don't make it harder on yourself than needs be.

Hitch

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Did you read about the book I received, to quote, typed 100% in excel? Saints preserve us...I'm still torn between crying or laughing about it.

LOL! That's madness.

What was the book? A book about spreadsheets?

Originally Posted by Hitch

Or really, really, really bored. Or Tex! Calling Tex2002ans....

It's happening! It's happening!

It's called "Static Site Generators", like Hugo:

https://gohugo.io/

I'll most likely be doing my blog in Markdown, then having Hugo generate all the fancy HTML+CSS+linkages for me.

I got sick and tired of Javascript and all this constant "User-Hostile" nonsense infecting the web.

Now I'll have:

• Static site?
• Everything in plaintext?
• Full control of the source files?
• Automatically follows your folder/filenaming structure?
• Toss it in your own version control?

Sign me up!

(Grumble grumble, I need to prioritize this research over all my other stuff. Less timewasting on MobileRead/Reddit, more time on programming/researching productivity tools! I've been working on LOTS of interesting projects these past 12 months.)

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Did you read about the book I received, to quote, typed 100% in excel? Saints preserve us...I'm still torn between crying or laughing about it.

Perhaps I thought of that unconsciously. Of course if it's 1979 and you only have Visicalc on your Apple ][


At least you can export from Excel. A million years ago I was using a stupid DTP program and belatedly discovered you could edit, save, print. No export and it was CP/M or DOS so no copy/paste either.

After that I made sure any source was either in a format something else could read or be exported in such rather than type text or draw in some "wonderful" program incompatible with the world.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Perhaps I thought of that unconsciously. Of course if it's 1979 and you only have Visicalc on your Apple ][

Oh, you sweet innocent summer child, you, would that it had been. Nope, this was less than 8 weeks ago. Each line of dialogue/narrative typed in a new row. Motherfinker!!

At least you can export from Excel. A million years ago I was using a stupid DTP program and belatedly discovered you could edit, save, print. No export and it was CP/M or DOS so no copy/paste either.

Lord, those were the days. Man.

After that I made sure any source was either in a format something else could read or be exported in such rather than type text or draw in some "wonderful" program incompatible with the world.

LOL, I still get books done in, wait for it: Corel DRAW. Not Corel Wordperfect, mind you--nooooooooooo, Corel DRAW.

Hitch

[Pierre Lawrence]

I am as chagrined as I can be to have been so naive as to think you could edit a PDF file with Adobe's Acrobat Pro.