Toggling the new Dark Mode with latest firmware - Page 2

JasperBeardly · 10-01-2021, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quoth

Though with the brightness correct there is no evidence of any human advantage to "dark mode".

A bit of hyperbole there. I use dark mode when there is low ambient light. On LCD screens with the backlight turned down enough to make reading comfortable the contrast is so low it is hard for me to make out pictures and graphics. Even on an e-ink screen unless I have a lot of light in the room dark mode is more comfortable. So that’s the advantage for me and I’m human.

Quoth · 10-02-2021, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasperBeardly

On LCD screens with the backlight turned down enough to make reading comfortable the contrast is so low it is hard for me to make out pictures and graphics

Then the screen contrast or brightness is wrong.
It's not hyperbole. It's exactly why dark mode was promoted, after OLED screens arrived. We had "dark mode" for over 25 years because "paper mode" didn't work well on CRTs then. Blackboards were replaced by Whiteboards, not just because replacing chalk (Calcium Sulphate) with dry wipe markers. Mono LCDs could have used "dark mode" but paper mode was better. OHPs used "paper mode".
Silent Movies used "dark mode" captions, later movies used paper mode captions.

JasperBeardly · 10-02-2021, 12:51 PM

Thank you for letting me know that I (and in fact, all of humanity) have perfect eyesight and we all perceive everything the same. It’s heartening to know that there are no eye diseases or conditions.

That it’s not me and is just that my screen is not adjusted to a standard that is perfect for everyone. That Apple, Google, and Microsoft waste their time with accessibility options like “increase contrast” and “invert screen” because nobody needs them!

And finally just how wrong I am to have a preference and claim that under certain lighting, dark mode is more comfortable for me. I will remember that my eyes are just like everyone else’s and you know the best way for me to read. After all it’s not hyperbole but is literally true.

Quoth · 10-02-2021, 02:29 PM

I'm not objecting to anyone having the personal preference to use dark mode. I'm just pointing out that the current reason for the promotion of it is power saving on OLED phones and tablets. It's nothing to do with eye conditions.

Like serif and sans fonts, some people have a preference and feel dark mode or paper mode is easier to read. As with the fonts there is no clear evidence that it really helps. But unlike serif vs sans it does save power on OLED.

Similarly there is no actual evidence that monospace or a special dyslexic font help people that are dyslexic.

The biggest advantage of ebooks (not PDFs) is being able to change the font size, line spacing and margin to suit taste or comfort. That's far more important than dark mode.

Do use what suits you. Be aware of nocebo and placebo effects!

-

Also people that pick grey body fonts (for paper or dark modes) should be banned from web page, ebook and paper book formatting / production. Designers also should not force Dark Mode Web Pages on everyone. People can use a suitable browser it they want that.

JasperBeardly · 10-02-2021, 07:36 PM

Then why does macOS have dark mode when all Apple computers that have a screen are LCD? Why does Windows have dark mode when nearly all screens are LCD? All iPads have LCD screens and dark mode. Why did Kobo add dark mode to the Elipsa? Why do Kindles have dark mode? It saves no energy on any of them.

Amazon only puts dark mode on newer or higher end Kindles and promotes it as a feature to sell them. People are willing to patch or add additional software to their Kobo reader to get dark mode.

If this was a feature primarily for energy savings would they have spent the time adding it to devices where it doesn't save any energy? Why don't either Apple or Google turn on dark mode in low power or energy saving mode? This is why: https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rele...r-linings.html

I can only assume that companies add dark mode because people want it and it sells devices (my opinion).

I have had to ask myself why I am spending so much time and energy replying to you. You rubbed me the wrong way when you said "Then the screen contrast or brightness is wrong" on my iPad. You can't possibly know how my eyes are or how I see, yet you say that as a statement of fact. How can you prove that? You say that there is no human advantage to dark mode but offer nothing to back it up. It's a pretty sweeping statement that dark mode is useless to all people and they just have to adjust the brightness correctly. Show me a study to back it up. Don't use some random internet article that just says "studies show...", make sure there is a link or reference to an actual study.

"I'm not objecting to anyone having the personal preference to use dark mode. I'm just pointing out that the current reason for the promotion of it is power saving on OLED phones and tablets. It's nothing to do with eye conditions."

It might not be anything to do with eye conditions, but I think it is to do with giving people what they want (my opinion). See link to study above.

Do use what suits you. Be aware of nocebo and placebo effects!

Do you have any evidence that this is a placebo effect? Again you don't offer anything to back it up. Even if it is a placebo effect it's still real to me.

You offer a lot of "facts" with nothing to back them up and I really object to someone telling me that what I experience and feel is somehow wrong or non-existent. You can't possibly know what I experience or that I can fix it by adjusting something like the backlight (or frontlight).

Quoth · 10-03-2021, 11:51 AM

I wasn't attacking you, JasperBeardly, just pointing out why dark mode was resurrected and why on eink it doesn't matter for most people.

Xerox Star, 1981. The first desktop windows / GUI / WIMP system
The Apple Lisa was the Mk1 Mac, Apple's first GUI/WIMP based PC in 1983.
Digital Research Gem was 1984.
Microsoft Windows 1.0 in 1985 and Windows 2.0 in 1987 (First usable Windows was 3.x)
Risc OS (Acorn ARM based Archimedes)
IBM & MS OS/2 existed before it got the GUI in 1988.
There was an MS OS/2 in 1989. IBM from 1989 was developing it separately.
Sun's SunOS 4.1.1 had Open Windows GUI in 1990.
Sun's Solaris 1992
Windows NT first version was 3.1 in 1993. The 2000 is 5.0, XP is 5.1. Vista and Win7 were really NT 6.x.

None of these offered a dark mode except on the terminal windows. The Desktops were paper mode. Any could have offered dark mode.

Apple's iPhone X was their first AMOLED/OLED product in 2017. OLED needs a dark mode to save power. Because they are really electroluminescent dots and not true LEDs they are also limited in brightness compared to LCDs with real LED back lights. So many Apple product use LCD to be better visible in direct sunlight.

From 1981 to 2017 approximately no GUI offered dark mode though any could have. I used a lot of these as well as Amiga and Atari GUIs.

Google's Android and iOS offered dark mode. Some Web sites used it. It became a fashion and was added to Windows 10. I don't know how long Linux desktops and MacOS has offered it, but it's largely fashion except for power saving on OLED phones.

It's now another user preference, a user choice. The only point I was trying to make is that everything used to use dark mode and then didn't for nearly 30 years and current availability is due to OLED creating a user demand for it. No eye condition needs it. It's purely a personal preference on eInk and LCD.

Perhaps stupid grey text on web pages has helped promote it as inverting the screen makes it easier to improve contrast.

Read wikipedia and other sources on AMOLED, OLED, GUIs, dark mode etc.

Quoth · 10-03-2021, 11:58 AM

Oh, and why on earth did Apple think they could win when they had copied Xerox?

Quote:

On March 17, 1988, Apple Inc. filed a lawsuit against Microsoft and Hewlett-Packard, accusing them of violating copyrights Apple held on the Macintosh System Software.[21] Apple claimed the "look and feel" of the Macintosh operating system, taken as a whole, was protected by copyright and that Windows 2.0 violated this copyright by having the same icons. The judge ruled in favor of Hewlett-Packard and Microsoft on all but 10 of the 189 graphical user interface elements that Apple sued on, and the court found the remaining 10 GUI elements could not be copyrighted.[2][22]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window...ict_with_Apple

RobertJSawyer · 10-03-2021, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quoth

It's partly fashion and partly some people have got used to it on LCD screens otherwise set too bright.

Some of us have partners we share a bed with. Dark mode doesn't disturb my wife; regular mode, even at very low brightness, does.

Some of us have photosensitivity. Dark mode (or an inverted screen) really helps. Please don't be dismissive of our experience or reality.

Quoth · 10-03-2021, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertJSawyer

Some of us have partners we share a bed with. Dark mode doesn't disturb my wife; regular mode, even at very low brightness, does.

My dad likes the frontlight on the kindle to read under the blanket!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertJSawyer

Some of us have photosensitivity. Dark mode (or an inverted screen) really helps. Please don't be dismissive of our experience or reality.

I'm not being dismissive. I agree with choice. I'm just pointing out that it could have been done for nearly 30 years and wasn't till OLED power saving was a requirement. Some people liked it, for whatever reason, so it's been added to lots of things that don't need it or work less well in dark or inverted mode.
I have researched the photosensitivity claim. If there was sound evidence for it, such a mode would have been implemented long ago.

There is no point in attacking me for pointing out the historical facts. I'm not wanting to deny anyone that wants dark (inverse to paper mode) the choice. It would be very bad, if like some websites, it was the default and you couldn't have paper mode.

davidfor · 10-03-2021, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quoth

From 1981 to 2017 approximately no GUI offered dark mode though any could have. I used a lot of these as well as Amiga and Atari GUIs.

What exactly do you call a "Dark mode"? Windows and OS/2 always had dark desktop schemes. I would be surprised if the other windowing systems that had schemes did not as well. And as you said, lots of forum and other sites have dark themes. As do lots of applications.

The desire for dark mode has nothing to do with OLED. People have been wanting it on all screen technologies for as long as the apps or OS allowed people to change the looks. And people were asking for it on e-ink before the lights where added. If there has been a change, it is that the default schemes are darker than they used to be. And maybe on some devices, the default scheme is what would have been the dark mode a few years ago. Your argument about OLED is a good reason for that to happen. But honestly, I think it is much more likely it is the marketing department deciding it is "cool" and "modern" or whatever words they are using this week to justify their paychecks.

And note, I am not making any comment on whether dark mode, inverted screen or whatever people want to call it makes sense, is desirable or is better in any way at all. I'm only making a statement that I think that the existence of, and popularity of these modes has absolutely nothing to do with the introduction of OLED technology.

JasperBeardly · 10-03-2021, 09:58 PM

I apologize to everyone for engaging this guy. I’m an idiot to ever respond to him. I was writing a long response when I finally realized what he’s doing and I deleted it. I will not engage him anymore.

Again I’m sorry.

murraypaul · 10-04-2021, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quoth

I'm not being dismissive. I agree with choice. I'm just pointing out that it could have been done for nearly 30 years and wasn't till OLED power saving was a requirement. Some people liked it, for whatever reason, so it's been added to lots of things that don't need it or work less well in dark or inverted mode.

We are talking about eBook readers, not PCs, so I'm not sure what your discussions of Window and MacOS have to do with anything?

Dark mode was available on a variety of devices used for reading many years before 2017, which you list as the important date, being the iPhoneX release with an OLED screen.

I did some coding on an eBook reader for the Sony PSP a decade before that, and dark mode was an option then.

Many people who routinely reads at night in bed with the lights off will have used dark mode on whatever devices were available, long before OLED screens were an option.

RobertJSawyer · 10-04-2021, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quoth

I'm just pointing out that it could have been done for nearly 30 years

Do tell: which ebook reader could it have been done on 30 years ago?

You know as well as I do that there is a fundamental difference between unlit or sidelit E Ink devices and brightly luminous CRTs and LCDs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quoth

There is no point in attacking me for pointing out the historical facts.

No one is attacking you, old boy. We're politely disagreeing with your broad, unsourced, personal assertion. But welcome to the internet!

RobertJSawyer · 10-04-2021, 04:11 PM

Oh, and this happens to be WordStar for DOS 7.0, which came out in 1992, but the program has had the capability of having a light mode or a dark mode or anything else the user found comfortable in earlier versions going back at least to 1987.

JasperBeardly · 10-04-2021, 06:26 PM

He’s trolling. I’m sorry I started this. He’s just making ridiculous sweeping unprovable statements as “fact” to try to get reactions from people.

I have researched the photosensitivity claim. If there was sound evidence for it, such a mode would have been implemented long ago.

That right there is a dead giveaway that he’s only trying to poke us.

10-02-2021, 12:51 PM	#18
JasperBeardly Enthusiast Posts: 25 Karma: 11846 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Southern California Device: Kobo Libra 2	Thank you for letting me know that I (and in fact, all of humanity) have perfect eyesight and we all perceive everything the same. It’s heartening to know that there are no eye diseases or conditions. That it’s not me and is just that my screen is not adjusted to a standard that is perfect for everyone. That Apple, Google, and Microsoft waste their time with accessibility options like “increase contrast” and “invert screen” because nobody needs them! And finally just how wrong I am to have a preference and claim that under certain lighting, dark mode is more comfortable for me. I will remember that my eyes are just like everyone else’s and you know the best way for me to read. After all it’s not hyperbole but is literally true. Last edited by JasperBeardly; 10-02-2021 at 02:18 PM. Reason: not enough hyperbole

10-02-2021, 07:36 PM	#20
JasperBeardly Enthusiast Posts: 25 Karma: 11846 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Southern California Device: Kobo Libra 2	Then why does macOS have dark mode when all Apple computers that have a screen are LCD? Why does Windows have dark mode when nearly all screens are LCD? All iPads have LCD screens and dark mode. Why did Kobo add dark mode to the Elipsa? Why do Kindles have dark mode? It saves no energy on any of them. Amazon only puts dark mode on newer or higher end Kindles and promotes it as a feature to sell them. People are willing to patch or add additional software to their Kobo reader to get dark mode. If this was a feature primarily for energy savings would they have spent the time adding it to devices where it doesn't save any energy? Why don't either Apple or Google turn on dark mode in low power or energy saving mode? This is why: https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rele...r-linings.html I can only assume that companies add dark mode because people want it and it sells devices (my opinion). I have had to ask myself why I am spending so much time and energy replying to you. You rubbed me the wrong way when you said "Then the screen contrast or brightness is wrong" on my iPad. You can't possibly know how my eyes are or how I see, yet you say that as a statement of fact. How can you prove that? You say that there is no human advantage to dark mode but offer nothing to back it up. It's a pretty sweeping statement that dark mode is useless to all people and they just have to adjust the brightness correctly. Show me a study to back it up. Don't use some random internet article that just says "studies show...", make sure there is a link or reference to an actual study. "I'm not objecting to anyone having the personal preference to use dark mode. I'm just pointing out that the current reason for the promotion of it is power saving on OLED phones and tablets. It's nothing to do with eye conditions." It might not be anything to do with eye conditions, but I think it is to do with giving people what they want (my opinion). See link to study above. Do use what suits you. Be aware of nocebo and placebo effects! Do you have any evidence that this is a placebo effect? Again you don't offer anything to back it up. Even if it is a placebo effect it's still real to me. You offer a lot of "facts" with nothing to back them up and I really object to someone telling me that what I experience and feel is somehow wrong or non-existent. You can't possibly know what I experience or that I can fix it by adjusting something like the backlight (or frontlight). Last edited by JasperBeardly; 10-02-2021 at 07:54 PM. Reason: minor edit

10-03-2021, 11:51 AM	#21
Quoth Still reading Posts: 14,045 Karma: 105092227 Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Ireland Device: All 4 Kinds: epub eink, Kindle, android eink, NxtPaper	I wasn't attacking you, JasperBeardly, just pointing out why dark mode was resurrected and why on eink it doesn't matter for most people. Xerox Star, 1981. The first desktop windows / GUI / WIMP system The Apple Lisa was the Mk1 Mac, Apple's first GUI/WIMP based PC in 1983. Digital Research Gem was 1984. Microsoft Windows 1.0 in 1985 and Windows 2.0 in 1987 (First usable Windows was 3.x) Risc OS (Acorn ARM based Archimedes) IBM & MS OS/2 existed before it got the GUI in 1988. There was an MS OS/2 in 1989. IBM from 1989 was developing it separately. Sun's SunOS 4.1.1 had Open Windows GUI in 1990. Sun's Solaris 1992 Windows NT first version was 3.1 in 1993. The 2000 is 5.0, XP is 5.1. Vista and Win7 were really NT 6.x. None of these offered a dark mode except on the terminal windows. The Desktops were paper mode. Any could have offered dark mode. Apple's iPhone X was their first AMOLED/OLED product in 2017. OLED needs a dark mode to save power. Because they are really electroluminescent dots and not true LEDs they are also limited in brightness compared to LCDs with real LED back lights. So many Apple product use LCD to be better visible in direct sunlight. From 1981 to 2017 approximately no GUI offered dark mode though any could have. I used a lot of these as well as Amiga and Atari GUIs. Google's Android and iOS offered dark mode. Some Web sites used it. It became a fashion and was added to Windows 10. I don't know how long Linux desktops and MacOS has offered it, but it's largely fashion except for power saving on OLED phones. It's now another user preference, a user choice. The only point I was trying to make is that everything used to use dark mode and then didn't for nearly 30 years and current availability is due to OLED creating a user demand for it. No eye condition needs it. It's purely a personal preference on eInk and LCD. Perhaps stupid grey text on web pages has helped promote it as inverting the screen makes it easier to improve contrast. Read wikipedia and other sources on AMOLED, OLED, GUIs, dark mode etc. Last edited by Quoth; 10-03-2021 at 11:54 AM.

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10-02-2021, 02:29 PM	#19
Quoth Still reading Posts: 14,045 Karma: 105092227 Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Ireland Device: All 4 Kinds: epub eink, Kindle, android eink, NxtPaper	I'm not objecting to anyone having the personal preference to use dark mode. I'm just pointing out that the current reason for the promotion of it is power saving on OLED phones and tablets. It's nothing to do with eye conditions. Like serif and sans fonts, some people have a preference and feel dark mode or paper mode is easier to read. As with the fonts there is no clear evidence that it really helps. But unlike serif vs sans it does save power on OLED. Similarly there is no actual evidence that monospace or a special dyslexic font help people that are dyslexic. The biggest advantage of ebooks (not PDFs) is being able to change the font size, line spacing and margin to suit taste or comfort. That's far more important than dark mode. Do use what suits you. Be aware of nocebo and placebo effects! - Also people that pick grey body fonts (for paper or dark modes) should be banned from web page, ebook and paper book formatting / production. Designers also should not force Dark Mode Web Pages on everyone. People can use a suitable browser it they want that.

10-03-2021, 09:58 PM	#26
JasperBeardly Enthusiast Posts: 25 Karma: 11846 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Southern California Device: Kobo Libra 2	I apologize to everyone for engaging this guy. I’m an idiot to ever respond to him. I was writing a long response when I finally realized what he’s doing and I deleted it. I will not engage him anymore. Again I’m sorry.

10-04-2021, 04:11 PM	#29
RobertJSawyer Guru Posts: 737 Karma: 4306712 Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto Device: Kobo Libra 2, Clara 2E, and Clara HD; Kindle PaperWhite	Oh, and this happens to be WordStar for DOS 7.0, which came out in 1992, but the program has had the capability of having a light mode or a dark mode or anything else the user found comfortable in earlier versions going back at least to 1987.

10-04-2021, 06:26 PM	#30
JasperBeardly Enthusiast Posts: 25 Karma: 11846 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Southern California Device: Kobo Libra 2	He’s trolling. I’m sorry I started this. He’s just making ridiculous sweeping unprovable statements as “fact” to try to get reactions from people. I have researched the photosensitivity claim. If there was sound evidence for it, such a mode would have been implemented long ago. That right there is a dead giveaway that he’s only trying to poke us.

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