To sync or not to sync

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by mbovenka

I'm with the OP, though, that it is not unreasonable to expect it to. There are other things that will have your Kobo attempt to connect to WiFI that have nothing to do with syncing, and which do not need you to hit the sync button.

That hitting the Sync button will have it sync is expected behaviour; that being connected to WiFi for other reasons with 'Automatic Sync' disabled will have it sync automatically anyway certainly is not.

And as I keep saying, that settings page at no time says that it is turning of syncs triggered by other actions. It is only talking about the scheduled daily sync. Which it states explicitly.

But, what other reasons are there to connect to WiFi? There are only three things I can think of that: Syncing, Pocket and the Browser.

Opening the article list syncs the article list. Nothing else.

The browser does a connect. I don't know if it triggers a sync. It didn't just now, but, I might be within the minimum time between syncs.

I suppose there is also the store. That does need WiFi, but, I've never seen it trigger a sync. Except for the few times I've bought a book or when I've saved a preview. I'll have to watch it next time to see whether it just adds the book or does a full sync.

Wikipedia and Google searches. I have no idea how I forgot about these. These don't trigger syncs, but you will get the syncs related to other options.

[JeanPierre]

Originally Posted by davidfor

But, what other reasons are there to connect to WiFi? There are only three things I can think of that: Syncing, Pocket and the Browser.

Personally, every now and again I turn on wifi so that the clock is re-synced. I've had it go quite far out of sync on occasion, and when I noticed an obvious discrepancy with my other clocks, I will enable wifi rather than manually setting the clock. When I do this, I have to cancel the sync due to the auto-sync on connect. I would prefer if it didn't do this.

[mathil]

All this talk about syncs, and my Glo HD isn't even syncing on its own (lol). For some reason, whenever I trigger the sync manually it goes on for a few minutes and then stops without accomplishing anything. I've had to use the Desktop app (which has been working fine thankfully).
I'm not sure exactly what the issue is, it started with the latest firmware but I use it so little... (I mostly sideload). Every time I go back to it after an attempt I have to reconnect it manually to the Wi-Fi though, maybe that's the reason.

[mbovenka]

Originally Posted by davidfor

And as I keep saying, that settings page at no time says that it is turning of syncs triggered by other actions. It is only talking about the scheduled daily sync. Which it states explicitly.

I know, and you're right in saying that it only talks about the daily background sync.

Even so, to me it violates the Principle of Least Surprise that there even are other ways of triggering a sync than a) the sync button (which you can 'disable' by not using it) and b) the automatic daily background sync (which you can disable in the settings).

I think that's the point both the OP and myself are trying to make. I know it doesn't work that way (and that the settings nowhere say that it does), but I'm arguing that it should.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by mbovenka

I know, and you're right in saying that it only talks about the daily background sync.

Even so, to me it violates the Principle of Least Surprise that there even are other ways of triggering a sync than a) the sync button (which you can 'disable' by not using it) and b) the automatic daily background sync (which you can disable in the settings).

I think that's the point both the OP and myself are trying to make. I know it doesn't work that way (and that the settings nowhere say that it does), but I'm arguing that it should.

And that is probably the problem. I'm not talking about how it should work. I am only talking about how it does work.

And I'm also talking about what is actually on that settings screen. I can understand why a cursory look at it will make someone thing it allows you to turn all syncing off. But, it quickly becomes obvious that it doesn't work that way. And the settings screen does explain what it is for.

But, how does a sync when you open "My Books" break the "Principle of Least Surprise"? You asked to look at your books. The device is making sure it has the complete list of books available to it. People have commented that they think that the Pocket articles syncing when the list is opened is a good idea. Why is it different for the book list?

And for the record, somewhere above I mentioned that that I asked Kobo why they added the sync when opening the book list. And I stated the answer was that their customers had asked for it. The more complete answer was that customers were complaining of about books missing in the book list. Apparently they expected a sync to be done at some time, and opening the list is a sensible time.

[Terisa de morgan]

Problem is "Principle of Least Surprise" is very, very personal. We assume that, if it surprises us, it assumes to the majority, but that's not necessary true. Perhaps your astonishment is the expected behavior of other user.

[Quoth]

Why is it different for the book list?

Because I have not bought one EVER from Kobo.
It's doing sync at home screen and in middle of reading.
I have no understanding why you are defending what is either a bug or stupidity on Kobo's part.
Almost anyone would assume that turning off sync turns it off. Selecting something like the shop, or suggestions, or "pocket" might be expected to connect.
On almost every device in the last 30 years "sync" has a more specific meaning.

Please stop on so many posts defending either Kobo bugs or stupid design decisions. If sync when you are simply at home screen or reading an already open book is not a bug, but intended then that is really really worse behaviour by Kobo. Nothing else I have does it.

Edit:
I've not seen it sync when I've opened the book list. Which makes sense as I have no Kobo books.

[Terisa de morgan]

Sometimes, I really feel that people get a type of device only for bashing it but whatever....

[JeanPierre]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

Sorry, but this touches me some of my pet peeves: "Comprehensive reading". If the text says "Background sync" or "Daily sync", that is the meaning, not EVERY sync. I would be very annoyed if I restrict a type of sync and that means that all of them are restricted. Lack of definition of type of syncs is a problem, wrong description is totally different.

Under "Syncing and updates", there is "BACKGROUND SYNC". Under that there is "Automatic sync" and the description below says "When daily Automatic Sync is on, your books, articles and software will remain up to date".

I believe my reading comprehension is excellent, and I expected that disabling "Automatic sync" would disable all automatic syncing. The sync that occurs when wifi is enabled is not a manual sync, it is automatic, and contrary to my own expectations of the device's behaviour when this option is disabled.

I think it might be worth addressing the elephant in the room at this point. What data is transferred to Kobo during a sync? I think I remember reading months ago that the contents of the Event database table is uploaded. Is this correct?

[lkmiller]

I expect any device which has wifi turned on to actually use that connection anytime that might be necessary. Turning on automatic daily syncing on Kobo is an additional full sync. So if for some reason something hadn't synced, it would make sure all things were checked at least once in 24 hours. Tapping the manual sync button is for triggering another additional full sync on top of whatever incremental syncing it does on its own.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by FrustratedReader

Because I have not bought one EVER from Kobo.
It's doing sync at home screen and in middle of reading.
I have no understanding why you are defending what is either a bug or stupidity on Kobo's part.
Almost anyone would assume that turning off sync turns it off. Selecting something like the shop, or suggestions, or "pocket" might be expected to connect.
On almost every device in the last 30 years "sync" has a more specific meaning.

Please stop on so many posts defending either Kobo bugs or stupid design decisions. If sync when you are simply at home screen or reading an already open book is not a bug, but intended then that is really really worse behaviour by Kobo. Nothing else I have does it.

Edit:
I've not seen it sync when I've opened the book list. Which makes sense as I have no Kobo books.

Having read through this thread plus several of your other posts, I find your belief that turning off a scheduled sync should disable all syncs to be a trifle disingenuous. As for the rest of your posts, it becomes very obvious that you (1) disagree with quite a few of Kobo's design decisions and (2) believe that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong (stupid seems to be your word of choice, AFAIR). Reminds me of -- see attached image.

For me, the sync when I open some screens is handy since I do borrow library books and that syncs them to my ereader. The sync at the end of a book updates time and pages read counters. I vaguely remember that you will also get a sync in the middle of a book depending on how long it takes to read.

[ploum]

Remember, we are not discussing grammar but UX design.

Regardless of what the actual sentence is, if a good percentage of your users is confused, then the UX is wrong. The mere fact that this thread exists is the proof that this particular UX is bad.

So Kobo should either fix the screen to make clear what will happen or should fix the software to do what people expect. I*don't find unreasonable to expect an option disabling all automatic syncing but that may be my opinion and, when designing an UX, those expectations have to be validated against facts.

PS: having professional experience in the UX field, I*can say that Kobo UX range from utterly horrible to bad. They really lack some good UX*designers. The only reason while I'm sticking with Kobo is that all the other ereaders I've tested are at least as bad. It seems that no good UX*designer want to work with eink devices.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by JeanPierre

Under "Syncing and updates", there is "BACKGROUND SYNC". Under that there is "Automatic sync" and the description below says "When daily Automatic Sync is on, your books, articles and software will remain up to date".

I believe my reading comprehension is excellent, and I expected that disabling "Automatic sync" would disable all automatic syncing. The sync that occurs when wifi is enabled is not a manual sync, it is automatic, and contrary to my own expectations of the device's behaviour when this option is disabled.

For me, it means the daily sync, sorry, as the text states. Nothing more, nothing else.

Originally Posted by JeanPierre

I think it might be worth addressing the elephant in the room at this point. What data is transferred to Kobo during a sync? I think I remember reading months ago that the contents of the Event database table is uploaded. Is this correct?

I don't guess it. Sorry, I don't understand the real meaning, not joking.

[PeterT]

Originally Posted by ploum

Regardless of what the actual sentence is, if a good percentage of your users is confused, then the UX is wrong..

I'm not at all sure where you get the sense that a good percentage are confused.

The users here at MobileRead I would not consider representative of the typical user of eReaders.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[JeanPierre]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Having read through this thread plus several of your other posts, I find your belief that turning off a scheduled sync should disable all syncs to be a trifle disingenuous.

...

For me, the sync when I open some screens is handy since I do borrow library books and that syncs them to my ereader. The sync at the end of a book updates time and pages read counters. I vaguely remember that you will also get a sync in the middle of a book depending on how long it takes to read.

If you really expect your device to sync this frequently without your explicit invocation, what is the point of having a scheduled sync at all? It seems to me that the device would sync itself frequently enough just by happenstance as you go about your business using the device.

Same question to the others that follow this line of thinking.

I find it stretches credulity that a non-technical end user unfamiliar with the inner workings of the device to infer this the same way as you. If anything is atypical about this group of Kobo users, it's that some of you are significantly more experienced with the device than the typical user, and I think this is colouring your expectations of how the average user will interpret what's meant by the messages in the settings.

The average user will interpret disabling automatic sync to mean that all syncs henceforth will require manual invocation. End of story.

In order to infer otherwise, the user would need to be aware of other circumstances under which the device could justifiably be expected to sync without the user's invocation. I believe that many of you are too experienced and knowledgeable to recognise this.