"Total Pages in Book" Data in Marvin 3 Is Totally Off

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by kguil

@demo Actually implementing ADE page numbering is simpler than what I did. However, with the exception of compatibility with other reading systems (which I admit is a fair, albeit specialised, use case), I find it to be less meaningful. In the absence of page maps (that many EPUBs do not have) ADE defines a page as 1024 characters. In my better judgment, people tend to connect more with "a page is roughly 250 words" than "a page is 1024 letters, digits, white space, and symbols".

Now, and I haven't put too much thought in this yet, I am considering an option to let readers choose their own basis for "words per page". For instance, you might rather define a page as having 350 words than accept my default of 250. This may have benefit of being able to align page numbering with external systems such as Goodreads (which is incidentally the intention of the Facebook poster that inspired this thread).

If you take a look at the Count Pages plugin for Caibre, you'll see exactly how to implement ADE page numbering. ADE page numbering is 1024 compressed characters per page. I cannot say more than that. The plugin will tell all you need to know.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by JKenP

To me it makes as much sense to ignore page counts and show percentages. I'd much rather know I have read 10% of the book. That could be byte based. Illustrations and whatever my corrupt it a bit but what the hey; it at least has a bit more meaning for most ebooks.

10% is a novella is very different than 10% of a novel. So just having % is not a good idea. What would be best is number of screens until the end of the chapter, ADE page numbers for the entire book, and %. Then everyone has something that works.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by kguil

@demo Actually implementing ADE page numbering is simpler than what I did. However, [...] I find it to be less meaningful. In the absence of page maps (that many EPUBs do not have) ADE defines a page as 1024 characters.

That is, in my opinion, far more meaningful than what you're giving us now, Kris. What you're giving us now is simply a better camouflage of the fake page counts. The fake nature of ADE's page counts is immediately obvious, and so is the fake nature of Kindle's "locations"; you're simply masking the fake nature of Marvin's current "pages in book" counts a bit better. But that is no solution, in my opinion. Here is what I said on this subject earlier tonight on Facebook:

To me, this is a biggie, and I find the current solution offered by Marvin totally unsatisfactory and (my apologies) amateurish. I'm a professional translator and let me tell you that basing page counts (even Marvin's fake page counts) on numbers of words is totally misguided. I read books in 8 different languages in Marvin, and of course a language like (for example) German has substantially longer words than (for example) English with its brief words. So, to base any calculation of "pages" (even fake, imaginary pages) on word counts is as faux as it can get. Does it mean now that German pages are longer than English pages? Of course not, which is why for fake pages, ADE's solution of 1024 characters per (fake) page is clearly superior over Marvin's current (fake) solution. Even if Kris allows us to change the number of words used for the calculation, this won't help a single bit because – as explained above – the entire concept is flawed, and I read books simultaneously in various languages every day. Really the only satisfactory solution, to me, is to give us real-life page/screen numbers, that is actual page flips on the particular reading device, just like Marvin gives us those for "pages in chapter". (I'm taking a lot of heat and abuse over on MobileRead for standing up for what I find to be the correct approach, but that's standard for online discussions. Abusing the messenger won't resolve the fundamental flaw in Marvin discussed here, though.)

Originally Posted by JSWolf

10% is a novella is very different than 10% of a novel. So just having % is not a good idea. What would be best is number of screens until the end of the chapter, ADE page numbers for the entire book, and %. Then everyone has something that works.

Not really – you're forgetting the crucial metric: "pages [left] in book", and I mean genuine pages (= screen flips), not the current Marvin fake page counts, and not ADE fake page counts, either.

As I mentioned, each of us is different, so each of us would likely prefer something else. Marvin will soon give us the option to customize our headers and footers, so all I'm asking of Kris is to put "pages [left] in book" among the available options, where "pages in book" would work consistently at long last throughout Marvin – that is, in the same way that "pages in chapter" already works in Marvin now.

Originally Posted by JKenP

I'd much rather know I have read 10% of the book. That could be byte based. Illustrations and whatever my corrupt it a bit but what the hey; it at least has a bit more meaning for most ebooks.

I don't agree percentages should be byte-based; especially in books with many illustrations (such as the Thurber volume I spoke of in the opening post), this might distort the "percentage read" metric a lot.

I believe for percentage read, word count is the way to go. It definitely isn't for (fake) page counts, which is what Marvin does now.

I also believe Marvin should give us the option to display decimal numbers (1 or 2 decimal numbers) for the "percentage read" metric. For extremely long books, it sometimes takes flipping many pages before you see the percentage drop by even 1. Therefore, for such books, simply seeing 72% isn't enough. Moon+ Reader Pro on Android displays one decimal number by default (72.6%). I would appreciate if Marvin gave us the option to display either no decimal number for "percentage read" (72% – the current only option in Marvin), or 1 decimal number (72.6% – Moon's only option), or 2 decimal numbers (72.68% – that would be my pick). Every Marvin user could choose whatever percentage display option suits them best.

Originally Posted by dwig

There are no true pages in ebooks, period. Any reference to pages is either a faux "page", a screen count, or a reference to one specific print edition.

However, in terms of being fake, what Marvin is giving us now as the only option is far more fake than the natural scenario: you flip a page, and you see the page count go down by 1. Every time, on every reading device, regardless of its screen size. What could be more natural? Until Marvin gives us this option for page counts, it will never be fully satisfactory to me (never 5-star software). As I mentioned, it's shockingly inconsistent that for "pages in chapter", Marvin does use the "real-life", device-specific page numbering, while for "pages in book", it suddenly switches to those fake, arbitrary page counts.

Originally Posted by dwig

In a perfect world, a reader/app would give the user a choice in prefs to choose between percentage, this app's legacy paging, ADE compliant paging, a custom word or character per page option along, a reference to a specific print edition if one exists, and perhaps a Kindle-like Location value along with options for how and when this info is displayed. This isn't a perfect world so you choose your reader/app and live with its progress information.

Eh??? You've got to be kidding. What's the use of providing user feedback, then, if users are only expected to meekly accept whatever they are fed by software developers? Of course it does make sense to provide feedback to software developers, so that they can improve their software based on what users expect from the software.

Originally Posted by ShellShock

So this is a "crucial issue" but someone else had to point it out to you? How do you justify kicking up such a big fuss over something that you were totally oblivious to?

Next time, please read the post you are replying to more carefully, before berating someone. As I clearly said, I've been aware of the issue all along; I reported the buggy "pages in book" counts to Kris several weeks ago. I even sent him an entire EPUB e-book from my collection so that he can see that "pages in book" counts just don't work properly at all in Marvin 3. However (as I said in the opening post), I thought this was due to the malformatting of the particular EPUB files I'm reading in Marvin right now. Ian on Facebook merely opened my eyes in that I can now see that the "pages in book" counts are incorrect in all e-books in Marvin 3, even in correctly formatted ones. I never would have believed that Kris would have chosen such a buggy, inferior solution (= fully arbitrary, fake page counts) for Marvin 3 as the default and, in fact, the only current option.

By all means: if Marvin also gives us alternative methods for "pages in book" counts (especially the one I'm calling "natural", "real-life" = each screen flip equals a page turn), then I'm perfectly fine with the fake page counts being available in Marvin as well ("Marvin fake", "ADE fake" – either or both would be fine with me as options, because I wouldn't use either). What is unbearable, though, is when the current fake page counts are the only option in Marvin.

Originally Posted by ichbindasauge

Words like "bogus", "height of absurdity", "major flaw, "absurd, "unbearable", "hell" and some of the other expressions and smilies you are using, are not what I would call "extremely polite"...

That's your interpretation. I see nothing wrong with those epithets. If I do believe that Marvin's current treatment of "pages in book" is bogus, that it is the height of absurdity, that it is unbearable, and so on, why should I not say so openly and sincerely? It's not an attack on anyone, but my honest appraisal of some of the current flaws in Marvin. If you or anyone else is offended by my honest appraisal of Marvin, that is really something for you and those folks to deal with. I'm just not going to dissemble here and talk in roundabout, indirect ways, although the current prevailing spirit of political correctness certainly would like to force everyone to be insincere, making sincerity and directness of speech a crime... I grew up under the Communist regime where you were sent to jail for speaking your mind, and I'm not going back to that mentality – sorry.

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Would you go up to a mother and tell her that her baby is the ugliest baby you have ever seen because it has blond hair and you think that black hair looks better?

Don't be ridiculous, please. Software creations are no humans – they are just products. Anyone who's active in the creative business (and I am active in the creative business myself) must not be thin-skinned. When you're putting out your product to the public, you must accept any criticisms of your product that you may encounter, if that product turns out to be unsatisfactory to some members of your audience. And because no one can make everyone happy all the time, there will always be some negative feedback, regardless of what you do.

[democrite]

Originally Posted by kguil

Now, and I haven't put too much thought in this yet, I am considering an option to let readers choose their own basis for "words per page". For instance, you might rather define a page as having 350 words than accept my default of 250.

Some may like percentage, some may like a page count calculated in a particular way. I'm more for pages since like with paged viewing and real books, memory of what page, even if it's "faux" might be better triggered much like page position such as left/right. Like with other questions and options, such as those for the header/footer, they will complicate the UI and of course, it's your choice of how usable, popular, and sellable you want M3 to be. As mentioned before, I'm ok with waiting for any particular feature until you can find an elegant way, and I'm not for adding in everything that can be possibly imagined. Despite however simple or complicated the app becomes, I'm always concerned about what is most used remaining quick to see and access.

As for calculating pages, I'm not sure if you've considered. Agree, though everyone isn't going to, that # of pages per device remains the same. Considering how one might change font size, line-height, margins, etc, how about calculating pagination of a web view given some particular dimensions? While they vary, picking some size such as mass-market, paperback, hardcover, or paper size is another possibility.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Faterson

Not really – you're forgetting the crucial metric: "pages [left] in book", and I mean genuine pages (= screen flips), not the current Marvin fake page counts, and not ADE fake page counts, either.

You really think genuine page numbers are screen flips? Sorry, but that's incorrect. The problem is that you change settings and your page numbers change. So that makes them not genuine and just a reference as to how many screen you have to go based on the book's current settings. I'm not saying this kind of page numbering is not something that Marvin cannot have. But, ADE pages do a better job based on the fact that they do not change based on the book's settings. I don't see why we could not have both sets of page numbering with it being the user's choice which to use.

[ShellShock]

Originally Posted by Faterson

That's your interpretation. I see nothing wrong with those epithets. If I do believe that Marvin's current treatment of "pages in book" is bogus, that it is the height of absurdity, that it is unbearable, and so on, why should I not say so openly and sincerely? It's not an attack on anyone, but my honest appraisal of some of the current flaws in Marvin. If you or anyone else is offended by my honest appraisal of Marvin, that is really something for you and those folks to deal with.

No, it is something you have to deal with too. I think you are much more likely to achieve what you want if you tone down your language. Your overlong, repetitive, and melodramatic posts are counterproductive, so even if some of your arguments do have merit I would not blame people for ignoring them because of how you deliver them. I would also not blame Kris for blocking your posts in his profile, so all of your ranting will then achieve nothing.

[democrite]

Him thinking anything directed towards him is abuse and everyone being "PC", calling every that he doesn't agree with, what Kris might not have thought of, or hasn't had a chance to get to yet or doesn't want, naming all such things "major flaws", it's not going to end -- now now, perhaps not next year, not with M4 or 5. It's quite tiresome and if Kris decided to abandon the forums and deal with only email, that too would be understandable.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I don't see why we could not have both sets of page numbering with it being the user's choice which to use.

Absolutely, Jon. That is exactly what I'm asking Kris to give us, because he's already announced we'll get the option to customize our headers and footers in Marvin. So, as part of the customization options, I'm simply asking Kris to give us the various page-count options: you would select ADE, I would select "screen flip = page turn", and someone else might stick with Marvin's current "pages in book" count.

I'd be perfectly fine with it if the current page-count mode remained the default; it's crucial, though, for it not to be the only available option in Marvin. It would even be advantageous for Marvin 3 to stick with its current mode (or the ADE mode) as the default, because the "screen flip = page turn" option might be more resource-hungry to calculate precisely for the entire book; so, those calculations would only be performed for those users who would select that particular page-count option.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You really think genuine page numbers are screen flips?

Of course they are – on that particular device. Which is all that matters. In the world of printed books, you can buy a Bible edition with 500 pages, 750 pages, or 1000 pages. Does it mean that those are "fake pages"? Not at all. They are genuine page numbers – in various Bible editions. And so are screen flips genuine page numbers – on various reading devices. Again, for syncing purposes, there are alternative ways I distinctly prefer – such as the "percentage read" metric (with 4 digits, though: 76.52%), or Marvin's syncing button for iOS-only syncing.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The problem is that you change settings and your page numbers change.

You're not seriously supposing this needs to be pointed out to me, eh? Again, take the printed-book analogy: of course every printed edition employs different font types and font sizes, let alone different book sizes, so that, as you say, "page numbers change" from edition to edition. And so they would change from reading device to reading device (or from one set of settings to a different set on the same reading device) in the world of electronic books. It's perfectly natural, and I see nothing wrong with it. To clarify: I'm not trying to enforce that option for everyone. But as you and I have just agreed upon, it's a legitimate user preference (and I very much suspect it's the most natural user preference and expectation among regular-joe and regular-jane book readers, MobileRead geeks apart). So, Marvin 3 should definitely give us the opportunity to enable that "screen flip = page turn" page-count option on our reading devices.

Originally Posted by democrite

Agree, though everyone isn't going to, that # of pages per device remains the same.

How wonderfully inconsistent you are. Isn't it one of the worst sins in software for it to be glaringly inconsistent? I do believe it is. So, how are you going to justify that in Marvin 3, "pages in chapter" actually follows the dimensions of your reading device (which makes all the sense in the world), while for "pages in book", Marvin 3 suddenly switches to some arbitrary, abstract, nonsensical "page"-count that will be the same on a 4-inch iPhone and on the 13-inch iPad Pro? Can anything be more glaringly inconsistent?

By all means: if some Marvin users such as yourself and Jon prefer such wild inconsistency, I have nothing against Kris giving you that option. But, please do not force that inconsistency on the rest of us. I'm pretty sure a non-geek Marvin user would appreciate if the "pages in chapter" and "pages in book" counts worked the same, consistently – you flip a page, and the page count goes down by 1 (not by 0, 2, 3 or 4 – of course!), regardless of the size of your reading device.

Originally Posted by democrite

naming all such things "major flaws"

You're so fond of personally attacking me (for a reason I can't fathom – I'd never had any interactions with you until very recently) that you're succumbing to your hallucinations once again. If you really bothered to read my submissions, you would find many of them where I label certain issues as "minor" or "cosmetic". Go over to Marvin's GitHub and examine some of the dozens of issues I submitted there over the years, instead of blathering nonsense here, OK?

Originally Posted by ShellShock

I think you are much more likely to achieve what you want if you tone down your language.

Don't worry on my behalf, please. Only earlier today, I was reading Cato:

Maxima enim morum semper patientia virtus.

[JKenP]

Only earlier today, I was reading Cato:

I am a big Green Hornet fan too.

[Faterson]

Sorry, I'm in Europe and haven't heard of a "Green Hornet" before. Must be an American football or baseball thing, I suppose.

[pwalker8]

Try googling "Green Hornet" and Cato.

[JKenP]

Green Hornet and Kato actually