Kindle Monitors All Activity?

[readingaloud]

Whatever happened to the idea of presuming good faith?

I don't want to get into a flame war, but as the person who is accused, by implication at least, of being a drunk paranoid liar who believes in space aliens, I think I might show the source of my "misinformation". It is the "Amazon Kindle: License Agreement and Terms of Use" document, available on the Amazon web site. Here's the most relevant passage:

Information Received. The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it (such as automatic bookmarking of the last page read and content deletions from the Device). Annotations, bookmarks, notes, highlights, or similar markings you make in your Device are backed up through the Service. Information we receive is subject to the Amazon.com Privacy Notice.

Now, if this doesn't worry you, I won't bother to tell you that it should. And if the device isn't actually doing what the document says it's doing, that's good. But I still find the idea that the device might do that, and that Amazon reserves the right to do it, breathtakingly intrusive.

Lots of people seem to be blissfully unaware of the issue, and that's disturbing in itself. Someday, perhaps, the people who don't care about privacy will either be glad that there were some of us who do, or, more likely, wish that they had.

[CopperTrail]

It can't report back data if you keep the whispernet off while not in use. Well, I suppose it could log your activity to a txt file and then upload it when WN is turned back on but I highly doubt the Kindle has such functionality.

[carld]

Here's the link to the full Amazon Privacy Policy. I don't find anything alarming there.

What specifically am I supposed to be worried about? That Amazon is checking my signal strength and backing up my bookmarks for me?

[slayda]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

(4) usually wears a hat made out of tin foil, and
(5) constantly complains about the aliens who have anal probed him.

I thought that Bubba was responsable for (5).

[JMikeD]

Originally Posted by carld

Here's the link to the full Amazon Privacy Policy. I don't find anything alarming there.

What specifically am I supposed to be worried about? That Amazon is checking my signal strength and backing up my bookmarks for me?

That particular quote (which may be taken out of context) doesn't have anything to worry me, either.

I see readingaloud is in Switzerland. The Europeans in general are accustomed to much stronger privacy laws than the US has had (you could argue we have no effective privacy laws at all), so I can see his/her concern.

[DixieGal]

In all honesty, you should be a lot more worried about your DirecTV setup. Sometimes, my red "recording" light comes on and nothing is recording. Sort of like a red unblinking eye is watching me. I always take off my top or something, in case the spies are watching via satellite. (You didn't think I was shy, did you? Of course not!)

[bwit]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

I always take off my top

On behalf of all DirectTV employees, THANKS.

[DixieGal]

Originally Posted by bwit

On behalf of all DirectTV employees, THANKS.

Sure, no prob. Just my little way of saying "Thanks for the fine HD programming!"

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Oooo ... hey ... those anal probe thingies look kinda fun.

There was a lovely comedy skit a friend mentioned where one alien says to another "We've been anally probing the Earth creatures for 40 years, and all we've discovered is that about 10% of them like it! I think our leader is just a twisted butt freak!"
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by slayda

I thought that Bubba was responsable for (5).

What? Bubba's not an alien?
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Dennis

[slayda]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

What? Bubba's not an alien?
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Dennis

Maybe, but you often find him in prison - or he'll find you. (that's the generic you, not the specific)

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by readingaloud

Information Received. The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it (such as automatic bookmarking of the last page read and content deletions from the Device). Annotations, bookmarks, notes, highlights, or similar markings you make in your Device are backed up through the Service. Information we receive is subject to the Amazon.com Privacy Notice.

Now, if this doesn't worry you, I won't bother to tell you that it should. And if the device isn't actually doing what the document says it's doing, that's good. But I still find the idea that the device might do that, and that Amazon reserves the right to do it, breathtakingly intrusive.

The fact that Amazon does it is documented in their terms of service, and rather necessary for their service to work as advertised. If Amazon didn't document it, you would have a much stronger case.

Accusations of paranoia don't doesn't result from noting that they do it. The question is why you feel anyone at Amazon might take a personal interest or use it against you?

I've encountered people unhappy with Google's GMail as an email service for reasons like that: "They could read my mail!" Well, sure, they could, but why would they? At this point, Google likely has many terabytes of email on their servers belonging to Google subscribers. Far more mail, in fact, than any human being would have time to read. Why would Google bother to examine anyone's mail?

The only reason I know would be a court order, but you'd have to do something really special to merit that sort of attention.

I have a GMail account, use it as my primary email service, and don't care whether Google can read it. If it's that private and sensitive, I don't say it in email in the first place.

I'm not a Kindle owner, but I have similar feelings about the data they keep. If I'm Amazon, I want to keep track of what my customers buy, so I have a better idea of what else I can suggest based on the preferences they've already shown that they might also want to buy. I make my living selling things to my customers, and I want to sell more. The more I know about what they want to buy, the better I can do that. But I'm unlikely to ever note anyone as an individual, or even know their name. The record keeping and consequent recommendations will all be made by my computer systems, who don't care who anybody is.

I saw a jaw dropping post along this line in a computer trade journal a while back, from a columnist who was afraid that Google could track him too well and present offers he couldn't refuse. I was boggled. I'm a systems guy, and I'm in the market for hardware and software that meet my needs and solve problems I encounter. I use advertising to help me keep up on what's out there that I might be able to use. The more closely the ads target me and my requirements, the happier I am. Google can come up with offers I can't refuse? Dude, that's what I want!. I'm quite good at reading between the lines and saying No. Show me only the stuff that will make me want to say yes, because that's what I'm looking for.

The basic question is, given that Amazon tracks this data, what makes you assume they will use it in ways you won't be happy with?
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Dennis

[Barcey]

Dennis, everyone draws their personal privacy lines at a different place but the question is what gives any company the right to collect personal information and why would you assume that they're treating the data they collect with appropriate security.

Let's take Amazon out of the picture. The iPhone 3G has wireless connectivity and a built in GPS. It has the technical capability to track where I am 24 hours a day and report the data back to Apple. Should I ask why would Apple care where I was and why would I assume they would want the information? Maybe you wouldn't care if they did something like that but I sure would. If someone used the information to rob your house while you were out of town I imagine you would care. (Yes I know Apple wouldn't be stupid enough to do this).

GMail isn't free. You pay for it by selling your email privacy to Google. If you're willing to pay that price that's fine with me.

The Air Miles program is used to track personal purchasing information about people. Some people know this and think the benefits are worth it. Some people choose not to use the program because of it. Most people don't know they're selling their personal purchasing information to collect air miles. Some of these would care others wouldn't.

I think it's a good thing that people challenge companies about the data they collect and how they do it. I don't think we should trust companies to handle the data appropriately.

I don't think it's sufficient to bury the fact that they're collecting the information in a 50 page end user agreement that nobody reads. If a company want to collect information about me they should have to get my explicit agreement with the default that I opt out.

[LazyScot]

Originally Posted by readingaloud

Information Received. The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it (such as automatic bookmarking of the last page read and content deletions from the Device). Annotations, bookmarks, notes, highlights, or similar markings you make in your Device are backed up through the Service. Information we receive is subject to the Amazon.com Privacy Notice.

A lot of this sounds like the sort of information that would be exchanged to allow the download service to deliver, and know it has delivered, books and subscriptions.

I would guess that amazon also monitor the Whispernet to know they are getting the contract they signed up for to deliver the content to you.

I don't know about the US, but in most of Europe, contracts cannot invalidate your statuatory rights. Hence such a contract cannot take away any right to privacy you have.

Personally, I'm a lot more worried about the mobile phones. Think about the information they can gather. Then go read The Execution Channel by Ken Macleod, or Halting State by Charles Stross.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Barcey

Dennis, everyone draws their personal privacy lines at a different place but the question is what gives any company the right to collect personal information and why would you assume that they're treating the data they collect with appropriate security.

<shrug>

Amazon specifies what data they capture. If I don't like their policies, I have the choice of not using their service. They have a right to collect whatever they desire, so long as the tell me they are doing it. I have to right to not patronize them if I don't like it.

Are they treating it with appropriate security? I have no idea. I'd like to think so. There have certainly been enough high profile breaches of security permitting possible leaks of personal data, so they are certainly conscious of the need to do so, and have the technical capability.

I don't own a Kindle, and purchase little from amazon, so I'm not terribly affected one way or the other.

Let's take Amazon out of the picture. The iPhone 3G has wireless connectivity and a built in GPS. It has the technical capability to track where I am 24 hours a day and report the data back to Apple. Should I ask why would Apple care where I was and why would I assume they would want the information? Maybe you wouldn't care if they did something like that but I sure would. If someone used the information to rob your house while you were out of town I imagine you would care. (Yes I know Apple wouldn't be stupid enough to do this).

No, Apple wouldn't be stupid enough to do it. What would they gain?

And anyone who wanted to rob my home wouldn't require GPS data leaked from my iPhone. They'd simply do what housebreakers have done since long before GPS systems (or personal electronics of any kind) were prevalent. They'd case the joint a few days to determine I wasn't home and wouldn't be back for a while. (Unless they were drug addicts looking for valuables they could exchange for a fix, in which whether I was at home might not cross their minds.)

GMail isn't free. You pay for it by selling your email privacy to Google. If you're willing to pay that price that's fine with me.

Who said anything about free? As it happens, it is, but that's not the main reason I use it. I like the storage space, the ability to check my mail from anywhere I have an Internet connection and a browser, and the ability to treat my mail as a searchable database with index keys I define.

As for email privacy, see my comment earlier. I have never considered email secure communications, and I simply don't say things in email that are all that private or sensitive. If I need to, I can break out GPG and encrypt my communications using public key encryption, but thus far, I've never needed to. Want to read my GMail? Prepare for massive boredom. The vast majority of the 2GB+ currently on Google's servers are from technical mailing lists and notifications of new posts in places like this. Only a tiny fraction is all that private or personal, and even that would not be distressing were it to become public.

I reserve my worries about privacy and security for things that would cause a problem if they became public.

I think it's a good thing that people challenge companies about the data they collect and how they do it. I don't think we should trust companies to handle the data appropriately.

I don't think it's sufficient to bury the fact that they're collecting the information in a 50 page end user agreement that nobody reads. If a company want to collect information about me they should have to get my explicit agreement with the default that I opt out.

I largely agree. But in the meantime, the sorts of concerns raised here seem to assume that the data being tracked will be misused in ways the people concerned wouldn't like. I draw a distinction between "could be", and "will be".

The question I ask isn't "Could the following bad things happen?". It's "Granted that they could, how likely is it?" My feeling is generally "Not enough to worry hard about". Granted, I could be in error. thus far, in my own online dealings, I haven't been.

Meanwhile, I'm not a Kindle user, buy very little from Amazon (and that mainly from Amazon UK, for things like British editions of Terry Pratchett and Tom Holt books). And even if I were and they developed a profile of my reading habits, about all they'd discover is "Gee! This guy reads everything!"

Well, not quite, but my catholic tastes and omnivorous reading habits have never been a secret.
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Dennis