Is the world really flat?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

I'm all for language homogenization (pass the blue cheese... thanks)... anything to avoid Babel. However, there is always the concern that certain concepts that are unique to one language will be lost when translated to another language. Concepts with no language equivalent can be lost to the ages (and, many argue, some already have).

[DixieGal]

True, but on the other hand, don't you think that is why we are here typing our thoughts into a world wide web? The very nature of language is to bring about change. Granted, it is happening at lightspeed in the present era, and we only notice because of the speed with which the change is happening, instead of it taking generations or centuries for a language to change a culture, and nobody really notices it happening during a single lifetime.

Do you think that although a word or pronounciation may change, that the concept remains the same? Or does the loss of the word somehow lose the concept?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

Do you think that although a word or pronounciation may change, that the concept remains the same? Or does the loss of the word somehow lose the concept?

I believe that a word or pronounciation of a word can have specific connotations of a specific concept (for instance, we use the words water, ice, snow, sleet, rain, lake, ocean, river, to describe various states and forms of H2O). If one word is lost, and the users do not have a historic knowledge of that concept, it can be lost (as a Saharan resident might not know the concept of crystallized frozen water droplets, or "snow").

I think the very idea of "losing" words or concepts is a tough one for an American to grasp, as English is such a young and well-documented language. But to peoples whose language has existed since before written record, there are surely many concepts related to objects, textures, mores, myths, and the more esoteric sciences, that have been lost over time as the undocumented language has not continued to express that concept.

[DixieGal]

This conversation is a fascinating topic to me. Linguistics has been an abiding interest for a long time. Let's continue it later, please? I have to log out of MR for now to catch up on work - and finish reading Onnuissance Cells.

[RWood]

In English we have a word called "snow" for the frozen rain that falls in the winter months. Sometimes this is modified with such words as light, heavy, dry, or wet. The Eskimos have I'm told 40 words in their native language for snow. It all depends on what is important to a civilization.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by RWood

In English we have a word called "snow" for the frozen rain that falls in the winter months. Sometimes this is modified with such words as light, heavy, dry, or wet. The Eskimos have I'm told 40 words in their native language for snow. It all depends on what is important to a civilization.

Just reading up on that: Apparently the "Eskimo words for snow" thing has become the subject of urban myth, with everything from 7 to 400 words for snow, depending on the source!

But the point is made: One culture's concept may not translate outside of that culture's experience, and can therefore be lost to other cultures.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Yes, the Bible and other documents were "translated" when transcribed, by whoever was in power at the time... primarily to make sure all those religious people were believing and doing exactly what the people in power wanted them to do. Among the earliest major examples, Romans merged the emerging Christian religion into the Roman culture by creating Catholicism, essentially based on existing Roman law and mores.

It might be more accurate to think of it the other way around. The Romans historically adopted the beliefs of others. When Rome conquered the Greek city states, they adopted the Greek pantheon as their gods and goddesses. (It's an interesting question what they believed before that, but I'm not sure the answer is really known.)

Christianity has always been a malleable religion, adept at incorporating elements of beliefs of societies that converted. A fair bit of Christian practice has pagan origins. Sometimes, the process is better described as a merger than an acquisition, as witness Voudon and Santeria, similar results of Christianity meeting the Yoruba faith of imported African slaves.

The folks doing the translations were Christians, and the end result had far more to do with internal church politics than any sort of "official" pressure.

Religion grows from and adapts to the societies and cultures in which it is practiced. Of course the Catholic Church adopted Roman customs and mores. The members were, after all, Romans.

I've commented elsewhere that that your theology defines what you believe, but the culture you live in determines how you express that belief, and I'd say that's what happened here.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I'm all for language homogenization (pass the blue cheese... thanks)... anything to avoid Babel. However, there is always the concern that certain concepts that are unique to one language will be lost when translated to another language. Concepts with no language equivalent can be lost to the ages (and, many argue, some already have).

Languages have been lost to the ages.

But the larger question is "So what?". Concepts map to to phenomena, and attempt to understand and explain them. Concepts also change or get invalidated entirely as we gain a better understanding of the world we live in.
There is an evolutionary process taking place. Evolution occurs as species adapt to changing environments. Changes that promote survival are preserved. Changes that don't aren't passed along.

We may well have lost concepts because they don't translate, or because no one now speaks the language that expresses them. Have we lost anything important?

Impossible to know, but I'd guess "Not Really".
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Dennis

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Impossible to know, but I'd guess "Not Really".

I hesitate to agree. Maybe those lost concepts aren't crucial to survival... but who's to say that they haven't involved levels of distinction in areas of beauty, love, appreciation, or intimacy that we are a paler society without?

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I hesitate to agree. Maybe those lost concepts aren't crucial to survival... but who's to say that they haven't involved levels of distinction in areas of beauty, love, appreciation, or intimacy that we are a paler society without?

We don't know. We can't know. We can only guess, and the guesses will have a lot more to do with our worldview and beliefs than anything else.

Do you assume that great and wonderful things were lost? Why?
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Dennis

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

We don't know. We can't know. We can only guess, and the guesses will have a lot more to do with our worldview and beliefs than anything else.

Do you assume that great and wonderful things were lost? Why?
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Dennis

I would hazard to say, because they have been "lost" before, sometimes for thousands of years. We are only now beginning to discover much of what was lost because of that great Dark Ages Christian tradition of washing off old Greek texts and writing Bibles over them. Or, burning ancient texts because they were from non-Christian faiths and cultures.

Much of Archimedes work was lost, almost all of Imhotep's teachings on medicine are lost, perhaps forever, once as a result of the loss of understanding of their languages (thank you, Rosetta Stone), but also and mostly through destruction of the scrolls and books.

Maybe we get lucky and discover them again ... maybe we don't. Maybe it only puts our culture and science behind one or two thousand years ... maybe longer. It's still a loss.

So, yes, I think it's a loss when a language gets lost. We have suffered the loss of so much great teaching, mathematics, medicine, art, science .... it would be a shame to lose more just because it was written in a language that no one speaks or understands anymore.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

What the armadillopuss said.

[Sparrow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue
"Ancient Greek lacked a word for colour blue ..."

[RWood]

As Ricky pointed out, different societies and cultures approach things in different ways. Chinese medical practice -- far older than western medical practice -- starts from a different perspective of the body and advances along its own path. Egyptians in pre-Roman days performed brain surgery.

In the 18th century (Patricia may kill me for this one) some philosophers seemed to simply rewrite the Bible by removing the word "God" and inserting "nature" in its place.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

I would hazard to say, because they have been "lost" before, sometimes for thousands of years. We are only now beginning to discover much of what was lost because of that great Dark Ages Christian tradition of washing off old Greek texts and writing Bibles over them. Or, burning ancient texts because they were from non-Christian faiths and cultures.

<...>

So, yes, I think it's a loss when a language gets lost. We have suffered the loss of so much great teaching, mathematics, medicine, art, science .... it would be a shame to lose more just because it was written in a language that no one speaks or understands anymore.

And I'll posit that if it's that important, it gets rediscovered.

"Important" in this context, means "aids in the survival of the society". I'll posit that things that are truly important affect all societies in one form or another, and will be conceptualized, explained, and addressed. The concept my be flawed, the explanation may be untrue, and the manner of addressing whatever it is may not be successful, but attempts will be made.

I regret things like the attempts of various peoples and societies to erase the memory of beliefs not their own. I recall hearing of an early Chinese emperor who commanded all books and scrolls be burned, so that subsequent generations would think all progress began with him.

And meanwhile, there are a number of obscure languages on the endangered list now, with few living native speakers. How do you preserve them? They may not have a written form, and language is not stand alone - it's a reflection of the culture which speaks it and the society that spawned it. When the last living speaker of the language dies, and the culture has been absorbed and dissipated by the one surrounding it, what's left? You may have audio and written records of the language, but you no longer have the context that gave it meaning.
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Dennis