Odd formatting

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

The things I find way more irritating are the ones that are very common in ebooks, but not in print books:

- Have a white line between every paragraph.

Bad practice.

- Have a white line of half height between every paragraph

This seems to be a compromise between the bad practice of a full line space between paragraphs and no space.

- Have a ragged right (non-justified) text.

Might have to do with the fact that some Readers do not support hyphenation and this does avoid the possible large gaps between words.

- Tiny indents (1-2 characters)

That's just silly because if the paragraphs don't have spaces, then it becomes harder to see the start of a new paragraph.

- Huge indents (Sometimes up to 2 inches...)

It used to be common in Mobipocket and MS Reader eBooks to use an indent of 5%. I think this is a holdover from those times.

-

No hyphenation

That is not something that the publisher can control. It's a function of the Reader or not. for example, RMDSK (ADE) does support hyphenation, kerning, and ligatures. But, the Kindle PW (on up) need to have the eBooks specially compiled to have hyphens. So a lot of Kindle eBooks don't support hyphens when Amazon could have made it so all KF8 eBooks had hyphenation support without the need to convert the existing KF8 eBooks into KFX.

Some publishers even combine multiple of these, which, if it also has some errors in it, make the book look like some pirated versions. (I'm looking at you, Picador, regarding those *dreadfully* laid out books by Lian Hearn. They were even missing the maps and persona listings!)

We also have another dreadful disease called Kindleitis. That's where text is supposed to be offset on both the left and right margin yet it's only offset on the left margin. This stems from Mobi eBooks not allowing a right margin to offset the text on the right.

Another thing that's commonly done that looks awful is a larger first letter at the start of the first paragraph of a chapter without a line height set properly. Because of this, that first line has more space between it and the next line than it should and it's noticeable.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

A preview of the book in question may be available for viewing from Amazon, in order to test that theory.

When an eBook gets updated, does the sample also get updated?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

No. Covers and other pictures need to be as large as possible, to cover future screen sizes. If I have a map which is 800x600, it works fine on a current lower end e-reader. It will also work on a 1600x1200 e-reader, but it starts to struggle at higher resolutions.

At some point, there WILL be devices with resolutions such as 8000x6000 pixels, and then the covers and maps will look horrible.

The very best solution would be to have illustrations in SVG or another vector format, as much as possible, and have all bitmapped illustrations in a huge resolution.

I don't care if an e-book is 10MB, and 9MB is taken up by covers and maps.

It's easy to create a reader fast enough and with enough storage to handle that. Any tablet can easily do it, so one could take the processing power of a small tablet and design an e-reader around it. It would be a good replacement for an e-reader such as the Voyage.

Sorry, but an 800x600 map that has text to be read is not acceptable on an eInk screen with a resolution of 1430x1080. In most cases, the maps are even lower resolution than 800x600. So when viewing images that are meant to be read or the detail is meant to be seen, it can be hard to see because the image on screen is now too tiny to see well. take a map that's 2/3rds the size of an 800x600 screen and put it on a 1430x1080 screen and try reading the text or seeing some of the detail. It isn't easy.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Sorry, but an 800x600 map that has text to be read is not acceptable on an eInk screen with a resolution of 1430x1080. In most cases, the maps are even lower resolution than 800x600. So when viewing images that are meant to be read or the detail is meant to be seen, it can be hard to see because the image on screen is now too tiny to see well. take a map that's 2/3rds the size of an 800x600 screen and put it on a 1430x1080 screen and try reading the text or seeing some of the detail. It isn't easy.

I know. That is why I said an 800x600 map will work on a low-end e-reader (one with an 800x600 screen). On higher-end e-readers you will need larger maps.

I for one replace all of the maps in my books with the highest resolution ones I can find, and I also replace the cover by one which is 1000 pixels high at least, if I can find it. If there is one thing I don't care about, then it's file size.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I know. That is why I said an 800x600 map will work on a low-end e-reader (one with an 800x600 screen). On higher-end e-readers you will need larger maps.

I for one replace all of the maps in my books with the highest resolution ones I can find, and I also replace the cover by one which is 1000 pixels high at least, if I can find it. If there is one thing I don't care about, then it's file size.

I too have replaced the mapwith a higher resolution map if I can find such. I have had to split the map in two in order to get it all on screen and readable on an 800x600 screen. But the map then was much clearer and easier to see/read.

As for covers, I usually try to find a cover on Amazon. Amazon usually uses a size of 1500 lines witch for Reader with a high resolution of 1430x1080 or 1600x1200, that 1500 line cover will work very well.

I also use Toxaris' ePUBOptimizer in order to reduce the size of the images. It removes some of the extra gunk in the images without changing the compression and quality of the images.

[Dr. Drib]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

When an eBook gets updated, does the sample also get updated?

That's a good question, but I just don't know.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

When an eBook gets updated, does the sample also get updated?

It should since the sample is the first 10% of the book.
Now if you are talking about samples you have already downloaded, the answer is maybe. If you delete the sample, you may get the new one or you may get the sample you already had.
I know not all updated books are updated to all kindles.
Much to the irritation of the authors.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Sorry, but an 800x600 map that has text to be read is not acceptable on an eInk screen with a resolution of 1430x1080. In most cases, the maps are even lower resolution than 800x600. So when viewing images that are meant to be read or the detail is meant to be seen, it can be hard to see because the image on screen is now too tiny to see well. take a map that's 2/3rds the size of an 800x600 screen and put it on a 1430x1080 screen and try reading the text or seeing some of the detail. It isn't easy.

That map would not be any more readable in a pb pbook (unless it spanned 2 pages)

I my old collection of pb's (cover price under 1US$ ) the practice was to leave just a couple of blank lines and print the next chapter (title)

My eyes do not track as well as they did in my younger years (but I do NOT need to wear glasses to read) , so My (touchup all purchases) standard IS:
.5em paragraph spacing, (when) Indented: 1.2-2em. Chapter starts no larger than 5em, but I try to maintain the original proportion

[John F]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You don't have to look at the XML/CSS. You see the effect of large space for section/chapter headers on the screen.

I don't mind the spacing. I think I prefer more than less, depending on what the chapter title text looks like. Seeing all that white space gives me a feeling of accomplishment when I start a new chapter.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Probably because I prefer it that way (and am surely not alone). I find starting a new chapter with no large top margin (even upwards of 50%) to look as "awful" as you think a top margin of 15% looks. It screams "amateurish" to me.

If anything, I find that vertical spacing in ebooks needs to be exaggerated (compared to pbooks) to be effective--in almost every case. I don't really care about "wasting" screen space. I've never run out of screen in all the time I've been reading ebooks.

My question is: why has ereading turned so many readers into armchair typography (and book formatting) experts?

You're not alone. If ebooks were to break hundreds of years of sane and reasonable pbook design by annihilating the top margin on new chapters, maybe I would finally be driven to compulsively edit all my pbooks. Or just give up on them.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

No. Covers and other pictures need to be as large as possible, to cover future screen sizes. If I have a map which is 800x600, it works fine on a current lower end e-reader. It will also work on a 1600x1200 e-reader, but it starts to struggle at higher resolutions.

At some point, there WILL be devices with resolutions such as 8000x6000 pixels, and then the covers and maps will look horrible.

The very best solution would be to have illustrations in SVG or another vector format, as much as possible, and have all bitmapped illustrations in a huge resolution.

I don't care if an e-book is 10MB, and 9MB is taken up by covers and maps.

It's easy to create a reader fast enough and with enough storage to handle that. Any tablet can easily do it, so one could take the processing power of a small tablet and design an e-reader around it. It would be a good replacement for an e-reader such as the Voyage.

I think that is a terrible idea. That is the #1 worst type of ebook bloat IMHO.
I suppose for someone who only reads one or two books, grossly obese books wouldn't be a problem.

I give thanks to Bezos every day that Amazon disagrees with you, and aggressively strips down image sizes to match the resolution of target devices.





(We have had this discussion before, I think.)

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I think that is a terrible idea. That is the #1 worst type of ebook bloat IMHO.
I suppose for someone who only reads one or two books, grossly obese books wouldn't be a problem.

I give thanks to Bezos every day that Amazon disagrees with you, and aggressively strips down image sizes to match the resolution of target devices.

(We have had this discussion before, I think.)

Stripping down image sizes is the wrong approach for the very same reason that DRM is wrong: it causes you to never be free of the company you buy from, because you will need to redownload each and every book you have, any time you upgrade or switch your device, either to get the correct image size, or to get the book to work.

The general population doesn't read a lot. According to this data from 2013, the average American reads 5 books a year. Let's be generous, and make it 12 books a year, assuming that people reading only 5 books a year won't buy an e-reader. In 50 years, these people will read 600 books.

What does it matter if a book is 10MB in size because of images? The library will take up around 6GB. So what? A SINGLE 5 minute song in FLAC format takes up around 25MB, an album being 350MB+, easily. Installing a game on a computer nowadays takes op 30-60GB. The average computer nowadays has 500GB+ of storage space (if you have a very cheap off-the shelf desktop), and every phone that is not ultra-budget has 16-32GB on board, and/or an SD-card slot.

It would be very easy for Amazon to stick 16GB+ into an e-ink Kindle. Kobo's can actually be upgraded by cloning the internal SD-card to a larger one and extending the partitions. So, there is no reason to sell an e-reader with less than 16GB of storage space, which would easily accommodate 1000-1500 of my very large books, which is plenty for any but the very heaviest readers; the device stores up to 2,5 times the number of books read by a normal reader. (And this is assuming that every book contains huge covers, maps, and illustrations, which will not be the case.)

What is more, you will need to use the device for 50 years, after filling it up, to be able to read all those books.

Thus, the only reason making the size of an e-book an issue is because manufacturers put only 2-4GB in an e-reader, and use very slow USB controllers. Why can't my Kindle transfer ebooks at a rate of 25MB+ a second (even over USB2)? My 16GB USB-stick, costing $10 at a grocery store can. The only reason is that Amazon, and other manufacturers have something to advertise with: "Transfers ebooks 30% faster!", "Now with 4GB instead of 2GB!" and so on.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Stripping down image sizes is the wrong approach for the very same reason that DRM is wrong: it causes you to never be free of the company you buy from, because you will need to redownload each and every book you have, any time you upgrade or switch your device, either to get the correct image size, or to get the book to work.

The general population doesn't read a lot. According to this data from 2013, the average American reads 5 books a year. Let's be generous, and make it 12 books a year, assuming that people reading only 5 books a year won't buy an e-reader. In 50 years, these people will read 600 books.

What does it matter if a book is 10MB in size because of images? The library will take up around 6GB. So what? A SINGLE 5 minute song in FLAC format takes up around 25MB, an album being 350MB+, easily. Installing a game on a computer nowadays takes op 30-60GB. The average computer nowadays has 500GB+ of storage space (if you have a very cheap off-the shelf desktop), and every phone that is not ultra-budget has 16-32GB on board, and/or an SD-card slot.

It would be very easy for Amazon to stick 16GB+ into an e-ink Kindle. Kobo's can actually be upgraded by cloning the internal SD-card to a larger one and extending the partitions. So, there is no reason to sell an e-reader with less than 16GB of storage space, which would easily accommodate 1000-1500 of my very large books, which is plenty for any but the very heaviest readers; the device stores up to 2,5 times the number of books read by a normal reader. (And this is assuming that every book contains huge covers, maps, and illustrations, which will not be the case.)

What is more, you will need to use the device for 50 years, after filling it up, to be able to read all those books.

Thus, the only reason making the size of an e-book an issue is because manufacturers put only 2-4GB in an e-reader, and use very slow USB controllers. Why can't my Kindle transfer ebooks at a rate of 25MB+ a second (even over USB2)? My 16GB USB-stick, costing $10 at a grocery store can. The only reason is that Amazon, and other manufacturers have something to advertise with: "Transfers ebooks 30% faster!", "Now with 4GB instead of 2GB!" and so on.

If I was in the ebook business I am not going to worry about pleasing the 5 book a year person because they probably do pbooks and are not my target audience.
I would want my readers which is the ones that buy ebooks to have what looks best on their device.
My readers would not be average. Oh and on averages, there is no real average.
I could find 9 people that read no books a year and 1 person that reads 50 books a year. So doing those numbers as an average, you could say the average person reads 5 books a year.
Someone can pretty much make statistics look like anything they want.

Now as to locking in because of formatting, most ebooks you get have 6 licenses so one can read across devices. The book does not look the same across devices. I have been known to read a book on my Fire (inside at my mom's), ereader (outside) and my pc to look at all the pictures.

[shalym]

I agree with the discussion of images--if there's an image I really want to see in detail, I will look at it on a larger screen. I definitely would never want to have a situation where an image was cut in half to be seen over two screens on my e-reader, or where I had to pan around in an e-ink reader.

I also wouldn't want a publisher (or retailer) to sell a book that wouldn't perform well on it's lowest device, which is what would happen if they sold it with all of the images in the highest resolution. I don't understand why you object to Amazon's way of doing it? As I understand it, they scale the pictures so that they look good no matter the device. If you download for an original Kindle, then you'll get low res pictures. If you download for Kindle for PC (or Mac) you'll get high res pictures. Or am I wrong, and that's NOT how Amazon does it?

Shari

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by shalym

I also wouldn't want a publisher (or retailer) to sell a book that wouldn't perform well on it's lowest device, which is what would happen if they sold it with all of the images in the highest resolution.

I have many ebooks in which I have replaced the cover and maps with images that are 6 megapixels in size (3000x2000 pixels), and the KPW1 (and the Touch before it) has no problems with that. It also doesn't have problems with the Delphi Classics, which are books that can be as large as 120MB.

I don't understand why you object to Amazon's way of doing it? As I understand it, they scale the pictures so that they look good no matter the device. If you download for an original Kindle, then you'll get low res pictures. If you download for Kindle for PC (or Mac) you'll get high res pictures. Or am I wrong, and that's NOT how Amazon does it?

I object against manufacturers or content providers deciding for me what is 'good enough'. I won't buy music in MP3 format, as it's not lossless. Thus, in my ebooks, I want images that are as large as possible.

And no, Amazon does not automatically deliver books with large images to Kindle for PC; not always, in any case. I have multiple books bought from Amazon, downloaded with K4PC, that contain covers and maps that are 500 pixels on the long side. That's not good enough to read the names on the maps.