Choosing a 8" reader with open formats

[mouha]

Originally Posted by shalym

I think Susan is referring to your categorizing the Kindle as a "closed format reader" in your first post. What was the closed format you were referring to, if not mobi?

Shari

Ok I see now I should have been more clear about it: actually I wasn't refering to the mobi format itself but the closed- ie: captive- type of system Amazon uses through their Kindle.

[mouha]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Most people who buy 6" ereaders regularly read paper books. My Kindle has always served perfectly for me in that regard.
I think you will find the Kobo Aura is more than big enough too.

Some people complain that 6" is too big, they want the Kobo Mini to return.


Why don't you ask your friend if you can borrow his Kobo Glo HD for a day or two, and try reading on it to see if you are comfortable reading on something that size?

Wise advices : I'm not only going to try her Kobo Glo HD, but as told here before, I'm also going to try the H2O for the Encarta as well.

[mouha]

Originally Posted by johnnyb

Just a word: whatever you try, do not go for the Pocketbook! People on German boards constantly complain about the flawed firmware and a Pocketbook rep has openly stated that since the Inkpad is one of their niche products, they are not intent on pouring too much energy into fixing it (but they still promise an update eventually). And since they just lost their partnership deal with too larger German book retailers (who switched to a different platform that is huge in Germany, tolino, for quality reasons), it Is possible that Pocketbook will at some point leave the e-reading space (they already invested in a pet training tool, partnership announced at IFA).

Yes I've read quite similar feedbacks too. As I've said, when I've called Pocketbook they told me that the white-frozen pages bug would be fixed in September/October. But I have some doubt as many comments on the Aldus blog complain about since last November... .
I've been also on the Tolino website, therefore I understand what you mean but honestly : I'm lost, the Onyx is told to be really buggy, and the inkpad to be abandonned.
So it would be hard, not to say impossible, to choose a 8"....
Which leads to the previous commenter about Kobo, hoping this is not too small for me.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by mouha

Ok I see now I should have been more clear about it: actually I wasn't refering to the mobi format itself but the closed- ie: captive- type of system Amazon uses through their Kindle.

That is different. Thanks for clarifying.


I assume by that, that you mean you'd like the freedom to modify the device if you so choose. And/or the greater configurability of the Kobo.
And that is your prerogative.

[mouha]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

That is different. Thanks for clarifying.


I assume by that, that you mean you'd like the freedom to modify the device if you so choose. And/or the greater configurability of the Kobo.
And that is your prerogative.

Exactly ! this is what would define my goals : openess.
I'm a open source actor, developer, and writer (yes I can put some advertisement too [NO: You cannot put a promotion here. We call that spam. - MODERATOR] and you are right : this is an important prerogative for me.

What do you mean by :

And/or the greater configurability of the Kobo ?

is there more possibility to configure when using a Kobo ?

[eschwartz]

Kobo has more choices for configuring the layout of an ebook -- font, size, line height, margin overrides, etc. even without resorting to patches. Some people find this helps them focus better on the book.

Personally, I am fine with the limited Kindle defaults.
Of course, I luckily have an older model Kindle that was able to be jailbroken* and I can therefore use the various hacks that have been designed for the Kindle.
I mainly use the screensavers hack, the Collections Manager hack, and the alternative browser.



* -- without opening the case to get at the serial port.

[mouha]

I see, but I've read the Inkpad manual who seems to be able to manage the book's layout as well maybe not as good because of the different quality of its screen, ok but functionally speaking it seems to me they do the same.

[kacir]

Originally Posted by mouha

[*]Onyx eboox i86 : pros :speed, functionalities,open formats & cons (some crashes, not available in France)

I had an opportunity to borrow and test an old 8" onyx.
Extremely buggy and I found the size way too large. The reasons one might want such a big reader might be:
- managa
- reading of scanned A4 papers or scientific journals in PDF format
- poor eyesight - need for extremely large characters

Originally Posted by mouha

[*]Pocketbook inkpad : pros : interface, available , open formats cons : a bug with empty pages sometimes (more ?) . for the Bug I've been quesitoning the manufaturer that said a fix (through firmware I suppose) would be available end of September/October.

PocketBook firmware is screwed-up when comparing to their older devices. If I remember correctly they were pressured by very angry user-base to publish 4.xy version of firmware for inkpad, and this is significant progress, IMHO. The 5.xy version of firmware is much worse.

[mouha]

Originally Posted by kacir

I had an opportunity to borrow and test an old 8" onyx.
Extremely buggy

While Onyx is really faster than inkpad, many people complain about such problems.

Originally Posted by kacir

and I found the size way too large. The reasons one might want such a big reader might be:
- managa
- reading of scanned A4 papers or scientific journals in PDF format
- poor eyesight - need for extremely large characters

well, actually I don't find myself in these cases, nevertheless I just find the 6" screens really smalls compared to the books I usually read (all formats included). Besides and strangely, most of the reviews are talking about a good PDF rendering and poor for Epubs (!!).

As a comparison and based on the comments here, yesterday I've been comparing Kobo Glo HD and the AUra H2O with the E carta. To remove any subjective (ie: personal appreciations) part, I took 3 books in different formats and now I have a real and interesting measurement: the 6"8 screen is 3 lines smaller than a standard pockect book (compared to a page with all the lines of course).
Now from my POV : while bigger, I can't say that the transition from a paper book to a 6.8 screen would be transparent, I really took my time with the books provided with the demo in the Kobo. From all the feedbacks, I was somewhat surprised with the little difference between the both GLO and H2O screens. Obviously there are differences, but with a difference of 60€ as well and I was thinking that it could lead me to a "wow!".

Originally Posted by kacir

PocketBook firmware is screwed-up when comparing to their older devices. If I remember correctly they were pressured by very angry user-base to publish 4.xy version of firmware for inkpad, and this is significant progress, IMHO. The 5.xy version of firmware is much worse.

This is scaring. There is a "fuzzy part" where for me it's still unclear if there is no market for the 8" because people don't need it : so 8" are kept away; Or because this format is still young in the ebook readers history (there were 5" !) and maybe it's a matter of time for this market.
In both cases : Onyx - Ocean- Inkpad = uncertain

In the next days I'll be called to test the inkpad : I'll then be able to compare with the Aura H2O.

[kacir]

Originally Posted by mouha

... nevertheless I just find the 6" screens really smalls compared to the books I usually read
...
I took 3 books in different formats and now I have a real and interesting measurement: the 6"8 screen is 3 lines smaller than a standard pockect book (compared to a page with all the lines of course).
...
Or because this format is still young in the ebook readers history (there were 5" !)

I have used 5" PocketBook 360° for quite a few years.
The 5 inch screen was big enough to read from very comfortably, yet, the device fits into a pocket. PocketBook 360° had a plastic lid that protected the screen very well during transport and could be snapped to the back of the device during reading.
There are two reasons I do not use it anymore: the electronics driving the screen started to fail and it doesn't have a front-light that I want. But a friend of mine still uses it for reading.

The firmware was very open, allowing us to install alternate programs for reading and set up what book formats are opened with what program. Everything was extremely configurable.
Newer versions of firmware have more and more features, but the openness and the configurability are eroded with each new firmware generation. I do not care about fancy new features, such as Dropbox integration if it means I can't set up my margins or text justification.
Even the newest generation of firmware is pretty good, mind you, when compared with other devices, but not as great when compared to previous generations.

Please note that you do not need to have wide margins around the text on an e-ink screen. You need margins on paper, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to bind a book or hold it open, but every e-ink reader has a frame around the screen that you can consider to be a margin.
Go ahead, take a standard fiction book and measure the line *length*. It has very similar length as the width of a 6" screen [in portrait orientation]. When you put your device into landscape position and set the margins to a couple of millimeters, the line length will be at least as big as in most fiction books. The number of lines on screen is not nearly as important as line length. There is such thing as an ideal line length. Make a browser window very wide and you will notice that reading text becomes extremely difficult - your eye will lose the track of where the next line begins by the time you finish previous one. If the line length is too short your eyes will skip too much. Go ahead and google up "the ideal line length in a book". There is even Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_length
We had 500 years to tweak it to perfection in the art of typesetting(*). Now count the number of characters in a well laid-out book and count the number of characters on a 6" screen with a really narrow margin (not like Kindle has).

Please note that it is much easier to turn a page on a reader than in a paper book. So what if the screen has fewer lines?

Why do you think the 6" size is so widespread? Just read a few books on a 6" device and you will see. I personally wouldn't trade the extra screen size for transportability.

(*) nowadays the vast majority of e-ink readers - with Kindle leading the pack - we are throwing the ancient art of typesetting from the window, skipping even such basic things like hyphenation ... sigh ...

[mouha]

Originally Posted by kacir

Please note that you do not need to have wide margins around the text on an e-ink screen. You need margins on paper, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to bind a book or hold it open, but every e-ink reader has a frame around the screen that you can consider to be a margin.
Go ahead, take a standard fiction book and measure the line *length*. It has very similar length as the width of a 6" screen [in portrait orientation]. When you put your device into landscape position and set the margins to a couple of millimeters, the line length will be at least as big as in most fiction books. The number of lines on screen is not nearly as important as line length.

There is such thing as an ideal line length. Make a browser window very wide and you will notice that reading text becomes extremely difficult - your eye will lose the track of where the next line begins by the time you finish previous one. If the line length is too short your eyes will skip too much. Go ahead and google up "the ideal line length in a book". There is even Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_length
We had 500 years to tweak it to perfection in the art of typesetting(*). Now count the number of characters in a well laid-out book and count the number of characters on a 6" screen with a really narrow margin (not like Kindle has).

Margins are not a problem for me, instead in my test I reduce them, if not remove them at all.
I see what you mean, and after thought about it you may touched something that was confusing me but I couldn't put word on.
Indeed, the inconfort may comes from the time when the eye change to the next line, and change the reader's perceptions.

Additionally, from this link I found something interesting :

How much or little scrolling is required to read the text will influence the speed of reading digital text.

Which is obviously true: this have consequences on ebooks reader sizes. And this maybe what disturb me.
I'd add an additional thing from your length theory : you need a minimum (and a maximum too) font size which
lead me to a notion made of a ratio: line length AND font size.
As they are both related, this may define each reader his/her reading comfort*.
For me, you need a min/max length with a min/max font size

*comfort for me is when I read a book I'm able to "dive" in the history and forget the book physical aspect.

From this point, I have finally tested the Inkpad yesterday and the H2O (E incarta) as well, and in that order.
Indeed, the length of the inkpad shows you a real, difference. There is a proper feeling of big size when you have
seen the 6" screen from a GLO. Nevertheless, the Inkpad contrast is really grey on the background, this maybe what Aldus told
about in his review. Moreover, I have turned pages slowly but I had a (totally except page nb) white page after a moment.
So as a personal POV for the Inkpad:

• a background not so white, a slowness which could be annoying & the famous FW white page made me doubted.
• Anyway the size is really great, you can increase the fonts size and keep a comfortable line length. The 330 g is not a problem at all and the thiness is nice too.

For the Kobo H2O :

• Even though the size is bigger form the Glo with a 6"8,you still have the ratio line length/font size small which is something I'm not sure I could be used to: here doubt again
• Besides, the screen is indeed impressive : the white is quite close to matte and black too. This improves my lack of comfort due to the size.
  Strangely, I had a fight with Caliber ergonomy to be able to dowload a book in dedicated dir, but this is another story, I'm sure there is an answer in a thread around here.

Originally Posted by kacir

Why do you think the 6" size is so widespread? Just read a few books on a 6" device and you will see. I personally wouldn't trade the extra screen size for transportability.

Simply because it took me a long time to find out that from the available readers some bigger exist. From this market I've found that only 3 models are available (those in my former text). Moreover, to be able to test the inkpad, most of the shops in the country, even as official salers, doesn't have any ! all people go 6", most of the reader availabe are 6".
But don't misunderstand me : I'm not ok with this situation and rather prefer to please my eyes than the possibility to put a reader in my purse.

Originally Posted by kacir

(*) nowadays the vast majority of e-ink readers - with Kindle leading the pack - we are throwing the ancient art of typesetting from the window, skipping even such basic things like hyphenation ... sigh ...

You preach a converted : like for the 6" size, this is the progress dictature.

[Dr. Drib]

Originally Posted by mouha

Exactly ! this is what would define my goals : openess.
I'm a open source actor, developer, and writer (yes I can put some advertisement too [NO: You cannot put a promotion here. We call that spam. - MODERATOR] and you are right : this is an important prerogative for me.

What do you mean by :

is there more possibility to configure when using a Kobo ?

Do NOT spam us again. We have only ONE place that is allowed for self-promotional posts. Your spam has been deleted - MODERATOR]

[kacir]

Originally Posted by mouha

I'd add an additional thing from your length theory : you need a minimum (and a maximum too) font size which
lead me to a notion made of a ratio: line length AND font size.
As they are both related, this may define each reader his/her reading comfort*.
For me, you need a min/max length with a min/max font size

When I sent you googling for the ideal line length and even included a link to Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_length - I wasn't talking about the physical length, I was talking about the number of characters per line. So of course the character size does come in play when you have fixed physical dimension of the screen. And that is the reason the people with eyesight problems that need large type would require bigger e-ink screen. Under normal circumstances, the physical font size on an e-ink reader tends to be similar to that in a printed books.

But ... you should purchase whatever works for you.
I know that millions of people are very happy with their Kindles, yet, I sold my Paperwhite the moment a front-lit PocketBook became available and I am much happier.

[mouha]

Originally Posted by kacir

When I sent you googling for the ideal line length and even included a link to Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_length - I wasn't talking about the physical length, I was talking about the number of characters per line. So of course the character size does come in play when you have fixed physical dimension of the screen. And that is the reason the people with eyesight problems that need large type would require bigger e-ink screen. Under normal circumstances, the physical font size on an e-ink reader tends to be similar to that in a printed books.

But ... you should purchase whatever works for you.
I know that millions of people are very happy with their Kindles, yet, I sold my Paperwhite the moment a front-lit PocketBook became available and I am much happier.

Under normal circumstances,

Damn, it seems I'm not

Once again, my purpose is also to give some feedbacks from my small tests if eventually, like I saw in other threads, many people are looking forward such informations.

the moment a front-lit PocketBook became available and I am much happier

So the grey (not so white) background is not a problem for you : did you see/test the H2O too ?

[Sgt.Stubby]

Originally Posted by mouha

Exactly ! this is what would define my goals : openess.
I'm a open source actor, developer, and writer

In that case, you would be best served with an xo-4 Touch OLPC. It's mostly open and runs a proper linux platform. It has a dual-mode PixelQI screen, so there is a color LCD, and you can switch it to a (e-ink-like) reflective LCD for daylight reading. The only components that are closed are drivers for the wifi (IIRC). If you need the proprietary jailed Android for some particular reason, you can make it dual-boot Android OS.