Title Troubles. Is it Normal?

[meeera]

Originally Posted by gmw

As for cover and editing. If you can't afford a professional you must find suitable alternatives (suitably picky friends or lots and lots of carefully spent time). The reaction described by meeera is entirely predictable and expected. With the huge proliferation of work out there, most readers will have little patience with anything that smacks of lazy production. (The quite reasonable logic here is: if you can't be bothered presenting your story well, then why should the reader be bothered?) There is no time to visit everything coming out (almost 53,000 new literature and fiction releases on Amazon in the last 30 days!), so readers will automatically discard on the most superficial of criteria just to cut that selection back to something more manageable.

Just popping back in to say that I don't think that deciding not to read a book based on it being riddled with grammatical errors is a superficial criterion. Every time I strike one of those errors, I'm thrown out of the story. When there is >= 1 error per paragraph I have absolutely no chance of ever making a start on settling in to the story. None. One per page would still be way too many. The writing IS the story. It's not a tacked-on ignorable extra.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by meeera

Just popping back in to say that I don't think that deciding not to read a book based on it being riddled with grammatical errors is a superficial criterion. Every time I strike one of those errors, I'm thrown out of the story. When there is >= 1 error per paragraph I have absolutely no chance of ever making a start on settling in to the story. None. One per page would still be way too many. The writing IS the story. It's not a tacked-on ignorable extra.

I absolutely agree. Good spelling and grammar are basic expectations, and not superficial. I'm sorry if my wording implied otherwise.

I don't even think that cover and blurb can be considered entirely superficial, because they each demonstrate the care and professionalism of the publisher which reflects directly on what you might expect if you look deeper.

When I spoke of superficial, I was really thinking of other less tangible things that we all use as we scan the books. From the impression the cover makes when it's just a few pixels on either side, to what books it's sitting next to on the list, to whether something about the title or even the author's name resonates with something in our mind. We make such calls automatically, instinctively, because how else can we manage to filter the legion down to something worth looking at more closely.

[Dr. Drib]

This is not directed toward any individual. Let's make that clear.

Repeated grammatical errors are due to a writer's ignorance of the English language, unless there is a reason for it to be otherwise.

One example that comes to mind where grammatical errors are actually a part of the story and totally acceptable would be "Flowers For Algernon," a great piece of literature by Daniel Keyes.

Ebooks with repeated [that's the key phrase] grammatical errors in them are deleted from my ebook, from calibre, from the vendor, and from my life. No remnant of such dastardly deeds shall remain to fog up the air that I breathe. I want sweet smelling roses, not the smell of offal. My nose hairs doth quiver with distaste!

[David910]

Originally Posted by gmw

I might also add that statements like "I think you are missing out on a good story" are rather missing the point. We're all missing out on good stories. Of that 53,000 there are bound to be quite a few good stories, but we can't get through all of them. Our job as independent publishers is try our best to stand out from that crowd, and that means looking good as well as being good. It also means accepting that most of the time it's not going to work. Move on. Write your next story. And try again. Practice makes perfect - we hope.

Which brings me to your stated "unconventional style". This is going to mean an automatic rejection from many readers - especially on the first novel from an otherwise unknown author. Unconventional means that it takes time for the reader to settle in, and you don't have that time when you're still trying to make a first impression. Also, when it's your first novel it is not yet obvious that this is an intentional lack of convention, you haven't proven that you can do anything else.

Interesting points, thank you for the thoughtful reply. I just see a fundamental difference in opinion between how you and I see things regarding the unconventional style. I see the unconventional style as something to set me apart, when readers want something different, something that might not be like every other ebook in the bunch, but still on the level of those ebooks. I figure if they read the description saying that it has stream-of-consciousness elements and an unconventional style, then they know it will take a little bit of time to settle in, and are ok with that.

And I believe that I don't have to prove I can do anything else. I have a free novelette on smashwords with a more traditional writing style, but it has been years and my writing style, I guess, has evolved to the style it is in the novella. Therefore, it's my style, and I don't feel I have to prove I can be just another nameless member of the "pack" on amazon today. Just my thoughts.

I really do challenge you to read "Silent and Abandoned". It's not your typical, every-day read, but I think it can really give context to what I am saying, and I really do think that you will enjoy it. - David

[gmw]

Originally Posted by David910

Interesting points, thank you for the thoughtful reply. I just see a fundamental difference in opinion between how you and I see things regarding the unconventional style. I see the unconventional style as something to set me apart, when readers want something different, something that might not be like every other ebook in the bunch, but still on the level of those ebooks. I figure if they read the description saying that it has stream-of-consciousness elements and an unconventional style, then they know it will take a little bit of time to settle in, and are ok with that.

And I believe that I don't have to prove I can do anything else. I have a free novelette on smashwords with a more traditional writing style, but it has been years and my writing style, I guess, has evolved to the style it is in the novella. Therefore, it's my style, and I don't feel I have to prove I can be just another nameless member of the "pack" on amazon today. Just my thoughts.

Sure, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to be (or naturally being) different. It may work. It may help you to stand out ... or it may help you get ignored. Time will tell, and this stuff can take a long time.

Understand that I am not trying to suggest you should have changed anything at all about what you have written, I am just pointing out that being different can be another hurdle in the path of getting people to pick up your book.

The opening chapters of my first novel have been described, quite bluntly, as "depressing". In some respects this is flattering, it's supposed to be (though, I hope, not so depressing they won't read on). But, since the early chapters are what people get to see in a preview online, this is not ideal situation for enticing new readers. I knew this when I published and I accept that some potential readers are probably going to be put off by how the story opens.

Originally Posted by David910

I really do challenge you to read "Silent and Abandoned". It's not your typical, every-day read, but I think it can really give context to what I am saying, and I really do think that you will enjoy it. - David

It's always impressive to see such confidence in a writer (it's not something that comes naturally to me), and I'm not trying to put a dent in that - just a modicum of reality. Unless you have researched my reading preferences you don't know what sort of things I read and enjoy, so you have no reason to assume I will enjoy it. I am not aware of any book that is universally liked, so it doesn't seem likely that yours will be the first. (I am also one of those people put off by what I interpret as high pressure sales tactics, so phrases like "I challenge you" tend not to have the desired effect.)

[meeera]

Originally Posted by David910

I really do challenge you to read "Silent and Abandoned". It's not your typical, every-day read, but I think it can really give context to what I am saying, and I really do think that you will enjoy it. - David

Irritating as I found this repeated attempt at promotion, I took your challenge and read a little more. I found more grammatical errors, tense inconsistencies, numerals that should be spelled out... so I stopped again.

Honestly, it needs editing. A lot of editing. Plain and simple. I realise you want to hide this behind "style", but a lot of it is just wrong. The book is exactly what I expected from the cover.

[David910]

Originally Posted by gmw

Sure, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to be (or naturally being) different. It may work. It may help you to stand out ... or it may help you get ignored. Time will tell, and this stuff can take a long time.

Agreed. Time will tell whether it works or whether it is a fail. But, I'm willing to put myself out there and take the risk, and if it fails, perhaps the next time I try to write something the style will be more refined and even better than it is now.

Understand that I am not trying to suggest you should have changed anything at all about what you have written, I am just pointing out that being different can be another hurdle in the path of getting people to pick up your book.

Again, agreed. This novella could be a fail, I'm not going to stick my head in the sand about that possibility.

The opening chapters of my first novel have been described, quite bluntly, as "depressing". In some respects this is flattering, it's supposed to be (though, I hope, not so depressing they won't read on). But, since the early chapters are what people get to see in a preview online, this is not ideal situation for enticing new readers. I knew this when I published and I accept that some potential readers are probably going to be put off by how the story opens.

I feel the exact same way about the opening of my novella too. But, like you, I just had to accept that not everyone will like it and want to buy it. But, also like you, I'm fine with it.

It's always impressive to see such confidence in a writer (it's not something that comes naturally to me), and I'm not trying to put a dent in that - just a modicum of reality. Unless you have researched my reading preferences you don't know what sort of things I read and enjoy, so you have no reason to assume I will enjoy it. I am not aware of any book that is universally liked, so it doesn't seem likely that yours will be the first. (I am also one of those people put off by what I interpret as high pressure sales tactics, so phrases like "I challenge you" tend not to have the desired effect.)

I just assumed since you put so much effort into the replies on this thread that you definitely seemed interested in the novella, so I thought that it would be natural that you would want to read it, since you put so much time into writing about it. Trust me, I don't expect the novella to be universally liked. If it was universally liked, then it wouldn't be a good story, imo.

Thanks for putting so much thought into helping me out with the novella. I wish you all the best. - David

[David910]

Originally Posted by meeera

Irritating as I found this repeated attempt at promotion, I took your challenge and read a little more. I found more grammatical errors, tense inconsistencies, numerals that should be spelled out... so I stopped again.

Honestly, it needs editing. A lot of editing. Plain and simple. I realise you want to hide this behind "style", but a lot of it is just wrong. The book is exactly what I expected from the cover.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I realize that a lot of people in the writing world will be put off by the writing, and I accept that. I get it, there's some grammatical errors in there beyond the "its vs. it's" that we discussed yesterday, but I put them in there personally because, quite frankly, it really goes against the story. The stream-of-consciousness elements and the fact that there is a young narrator don't exactly lend themselves to perfect grammar rules. A lot of the thoughts of the narrator sort of get blended together and grammar rules can't account for that. My style is also to sort of "pack the page", so I sort of go against grammar rules in order to do that.

Look, I obviously think it works and you obviously don't. The lone reviewer who posted an amazon review noted that the writing was well done. I'm sure there are also a lot of people who think the writing is terrible and in desperate need of editing. And I'm ok with that. I trust my work and what is in the novella. I'm sorry that you don't, but it definitely seems like you aren't the right audience for this type of writing. But, thank you again for taking the time to discuss the novella with me. You honestly did give me some good insights. - David

[meeera]

Originally Posted by David910

I'm sorry you feel this way. I realize that a lot of people in the writing world will be put off by the writing, and I accept that. I get it, there's some grammatical errors in there beyond the "its vs. it's" that we discussed yesterday, but I put them in there personally because, quite frankly, it really goes against the story. The stream-of-consciousness elements and the fact that there is a young narrator don't exactly lend themselves to perfect grammar rules. A lot of the thoughts of the narrator sort of get blended together and grammar rules can't account for that. My style is also to sort of "pack the page", so I sort of go against grammar rules in order to do that.

Again, I'm not talking about things like appropriately-placed sentence fragments, I'm talking about errors.

You may be happy to put your work out there with what appears to me to be little or no care for editing and presentation, but in your first post I got the impression you were concerned about gaining readership. Poor writing is an enormous barrier to you doing that. Being confident that poor writing is good writing is a barrier to you improving as a writer. It's not an insurmountable barrier, but attributing the problem to me as a reader instead of to your writing makes that mountain a lot higher.

I know this is blunt. I kinda feel it needs to be. Virtually all people start off writing not terribly well. Editing helps; honing your craft over time with hard work and critique groups helps a lot. Sitting back and being confident in your greatness, not so much.

But moving on: I suggest you find a good critique group and listen to the critiques you're given there.

[David910]

Originally Posted by meeera

Again, I'm not talking about things like appropriately-placed sentence fragments, I'm talking about errors.

You may be happy to put your work out there with what appears to me to be little or no care for editing and presentation, but in your first post I got the impression you were concerned about gaining readership. Poor writing is an enormous barrier to you doing that. Being confident that poor writing is good writing is a barrier to you improving as a writer. It's not an insurmountable barrier, but attributing the problem to me as a reader instead of to your writing makes that mountain a lot higher.

I know this is blunt. I kinda feel it needs to be. Virtually all people start off writing not terribly well. Editing helps; honing your craft over time with hard work and critique groups helps a lot. Sitting back and being confident in your greatness, not so much.

But moving on: I suggest you find a good critique group and listen to the critiques you're given there.

First off, I am very interested in gaining readership, we just got sidetracked. Also, I think intended audience is a good gauge for whether or not someone will like the book, so we will just have to agree to disagree about that. Some people would rather traditional books, and I understand that. But anyways, thank you for the advice, I have soaked it all in. - David

[meeera]

Originally Posted by David910

First off, I am very interested in gaining readership, we just got sidetracked. Also, I think intended audience is a good gauge for whether or not someone will like the book, so we will just have to agree to disagree about that. Some people would rather traditional books, and I understand that.

It's not about traditional vs non-traditional. I've read McCarthy's The Road, and Young's Blood Red Road, and loved them, among other books with non-traditional styles.

[David910]

Originally Posted by meeera

It's not about traditional vs non-traditional. I've read McCarthy's The Road, and Young's Blood Red Road, and loved them, among other books with non-traditional styles.

I read The Road too and didn't like it, I thought it was bland and that nothing really ever happened in the novel. Different tastes for different people, which is the point I'm trying to make, but perhaps I'm not being clear enough.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by David910

Thanks for putting so much thought into helping me out with the novella. I wish you all the best. - David

Those writers that participate here on "Writers' Corner" cover a wide range of genres. Our intersection of interest is the trials and tribulations of writing and independent publishing - not necessarily the content.

When someone does go so far as to provide feedback on content we try not to react unreasonably, especially when they're right. Yes, I did take a quick look at your preview, more in response to your discussion with meeera than as a result of your challenge. And meera is right. There are still too many errors, and I do mean errors.

There several blatant things (eg: "all my friend", ", so violent, that"), and the perhaps less blatant but still real problem of the paragraph structure: it seems random, makes the text very dense, and detracts from the flow of the story. (And don't tell me it's style or stream-of-consciousness, those concepts do not let you abdicate your responsibility for clarity.) These thoughts from a quick scan of the preview rather than a detailed review.

I don't see anything that unusual or unconventional in the story telling itself. My own reaction (opinion) is that it didn't sound like a 10yo boy, or not consistently (first person can be tricky to get right).

[David910]

Originally Posted by gmw

Those writers that participate here on "Writers' Corner" cover a wide range of genres. Our intersection of interest is the trials and tribulations of writing and independent publishing - not necessarily the content.

When someone does go so far as to provide feedback on content we try not to react unreasonably, especially when they're right. Yes, I did take a quick look at your preview, more in response to your discussion with meeera than as a result of your challenge. And meera is right. There are still too many errors, and I do mean errors.

There several blatant things (eg: "all my friend", ", so violent, that"), and the perhaps less blatant but still real problem of the paragraph structure: it seems random, makes the text very dense, and detracts from the flow of the story. (And don't tell me it's style or stream-of-consciousness, those concepts do not let you abdicate your responsibility for clarity.) These thoughts from a quick scan of the preview rather than a detailed review.

I don't see anything that unusual or unconventional in the story telling itself. My own reaction (opinion) is that it didn't sound like a 10yo boy, or not consistently (first person can be tricky to get right).

Thank you for pointing out a couple grammatical errors. The second one, from the looks of it, looks to just be the writing style (I know this probably annoys you, but it's the truth). But, the first one will be corrected and thank you for pointing it out. The paragraph structure is on purpose, actually. It's dense, it can contain stream-of-consciousness elements, it can sort of jump around, but you have to remember it's a young boy doing the narrating and things can get mushed up, purposely. There's a reason it's over 20k words and only 45 pages. I know you won't like to hear this, but the whole novella is supposed to be hazy and by the end, you will be questioning a lot of what you read, which is sort of the point, in a way. It's a very weird read, I admit that.

The narrator's voice is a complaint I understand and have heard before, and I acknowledge that it probably wasn't the voice I was looking for the boy to have.

[gmw]

Regarding the ", so violent, that" error, it should be just ", so violent that" - lose the second comma. There are several of these problems in your text. The rules for commas can be vague and confusing, but there are rules. You don't get to throw commas on the page in any way you please. An editor can help you with this - if you are willing to listen to them.

Regarding your excuses for being hazy and vague. Call it whatever you will, if you lose the reader what's the point of the story? The effect you are looking for can still be achieved with clarity, it just takes more work. Tricks like running on paragraphs and sentences to emphasise some aspect of a story or character should be treated like all forms of emphasis - with caution and reserve. When everything is emphasised the emphasis loses its effect.

Regarding the voice. It's told in the first person. You picked that, so you don't get to make excuses for it not being the voice you were looking for. Keep working on it until it matches what you intended.