PW Gen 1 updates? - Page 2

barryem · 06-21-2015, 08:13 PM

One of the reviews of the Paperwhite, I forget which one so I don't know how much this can be trusted, said they'd talked to an Amazon rep who said that the new features would be added to the Voyage and the previous Paperwhite in a future update. The reviewer said he assumed that that meant the Paperwhite 2 and the Voyage and that he thinks the guy said it that way to indicate that the Paperwhite 1 wouldn't get these features. He made it plain he was just guessing and that that was all he got from the Amazon rep.

Anyway, that might be a clue, however reliable, to what's going to happen. I have a Paperwhite 1 that I hope gets updated but I won't cry if it doesn't. I do most of my reading on my Voyage. I have the new features in my HD 6 and I like them but only in a small way.

Barry

eschwartz · 06-21-2015, 08:22 PM

It would fit the pattern for the PW2 to get the update but not the PW1.

twowheels · 06-22-2015, 05:43 PM

While I'd be happy to get the update, even if I don't it'll still be the same Paperwhite that I've been reading on since it was first released, and I'll still be able to read just like I was able to before. :-)

JohnRR · 06-23-2015, 03:33 AM

If an update to the Paperwhite 1 means I will be forced to see hyphenation in my books, I am not going to update even though Amazon provides it in the future. I now always set my Paperwhite 1 to airplane mode to avoid accidental updates.

Also, it seems in the future all Kindle will have hyphenation and this cannot be disabled. I have now stopped buying from Amazon unless this is solved.

HarryT · 06-23-2015, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnRR

If an update to the Paperwhite 1 means I will be forced to see hyphenation in my books, I am not going to update even though Amazon provides it in the future. I now always set my Paperwhite 1 to airplane mode to avoid accidental updates.

Also, it seems in the future all Kindle will have hyphenation and this cannot be disabled. I have now stopped buying from Amazon unless this is solved.

How do you manage to read paper books, as a matter of interest? They virtually all have hyphenation.

cybmole · 06-23-2015, 06:53 AM

but in paper books the hyphens are set by humans and thus are much more sensible, & in print you know they are present deliberately, and not introduced because of a faulty conversion, or a renderer bug
.
i don't think the comparison is that valid really - in a paper book you also have no option to change the font, or the font size, either, but adding that realistic "feature" to an e-reader would not be progress, any more so than is adding forced, mechanised hyphenation which is not to everyone's taste.

I fear I'll have to resort to some complex workflow of download to K for PC drm strip ,edit CSS, sideload back to device... palaver, assuming that changes to CSS can/will override firmware, which is not a given.

perhaps if enough people return enough books because of enforced hyphenation, amazon will eventually get the message !

JohnRR · 06-23-2015, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

How do you manage to read paper books, as a matter of interest? They virtually all have hyphenation.

I am OK if there is one or two hyphenated words on one page. This actually slows me down, but not very much. I can accept that. However, if the book uses many hyphenated words, I won't read or buy them.

JohnRR · 06-23-2015, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybmole

but in paper books the hyphens are set by humans and thus are much more sensible, & in print you know they are present deliberately, and not introduced because of a faulty conversion, or a renderer bug
.
i don't think the comparison is that valid really - in a paper book you also have no option to change the font, or the font size, either, but adding that realistic "feature" to an e-reader would not be progress, any more so than is adding forced, mechanised hyphenation which is not to everyone's taste.

I fear I'll have to resort to some complex workflow of download to K for PC drm strip ,edit CSS, sideload back to device... palaver, assuming that changes to CSS can/will override firmware, which is not a given.

perhaps if enough people return enough books because of enforced hyphenation, amazon will eventually get the message !

Yes, I hope that Amazon will listen.

cybmole · 06-23-2015, 11:48 AM

any machine algorithm for hyphenation is suspect IMHO because it has to cope with arbitrary screen & font sizes, unlike a human typesetter who has full control of the finished page.
I am pretty sure that the thread cross referenced a few posts back has some particularly heinous/ egregious ( where's that thesaurus when you need it

) examples of amazon's early attempts.

I hate seeing character's sur-
names being rather random-
ly hypehnated just to suit sc-
reen widths

twowheels · 06-23-2015, 03:35 PM

Do you guys actually believe that humans type-
set modern books and explicitly choose the lo-
cation of every hyphen? I doubt that has been
the case for at least 20 years.

howyoudoin · 06-23-2015, 03:46 PM

Human typeset books most definitely do not manually choose the location of every hyphen. The font, the font size, the word spacing all get priority, and the type setter isn't going to go back and mess around with those once again just because the finely tuned settings he chose carefully resulted in a few hyphens in less than ideal locations. You can't retrospectively fix the hyphenation without affecting all those other parameters already chosen.

It's a tussle between mainly word spacing and hyphenation, and no typesetter worth his salt would mess up his word spacing to "fix" hyphenation. Poor word spacing can mess up your enjoyment of an entire line of text. Poor hyphenation only messes up one word.

conan50 · 06-23-2015, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

They were selling old DXs that were were most likely held back for use in fulfilling warranties...

Saw my first DX in the wild today (Dr. Office), it had that ugly bird screensaver on it. Looked huge compared to my paperwhite.

knc1 · 06-26-2015, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

PW2, Voyage and Basic Kindle yes, definitely. PW1, very unlikely.

Hell just froze over:
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=262208

eschwartz · 06-26-2015, 04:35 PM

Now I am waiting for them to update my Kindle Touch.

Err... I'd still have USB Downloader mode, right? RIGHT?!?!

HarryT · 06-26-2015, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knc1

Hell just froze over:
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=262208

No, this is not the update being discussed in this thread (the one which adds the Bookerly font and hyphenation), although I agree that the fact it's had this upgrade makes it more likely it'll get the other upgrade at some point in the future.

06-23-2015, 03:35 PM	#25
twowheels Wizard Posts: 1,854 Karma: 13432974 Join Date: Nov 2010 Device: Kobo Clara HD, iPad Pro 10", iPhone 15 Pro, Boox Note Max	Do you guys actually believe that humans type- set modern books and explicitly choose the lo- cation of every hyphen? I doubt that has been the case for at least 20 years. Last edited by twowheels; 06-23-2015 at 05:31 PM.

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06-21-2015, 08:13 PM	#16
barryem Wizard Posts: 2,459 Karma: 68781975 Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Arkansas Device: Paperwhite 4	One of the reviews of the Paperwhite, I forget which one so I don't know how much this can be trusted, said they'd talked to an Amazon rep who said that the new features would be added to the Voyage and the previous Paperwhite in a future update. The reviewer said he assumed that that meant the Paperwhite 2 and the Voyage and that he thinks the guy said it that way to indicate that the Paperwhite 1 wouldn't get these features. He made it plain he was just guessing and that that was all he got from the Amazon rep. Anyway, that might be a clue, however reliable, to what's going to happen. I have a Paperwhite 1 that I hope gets updated but I won't cry if it doesn't. I do most of my reading on my Voyage. I have the new features in my HD 6 and I like them but only in a small way. Barry

06-21-2015, 08:22 PM	#17
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,421 Karma: 85400180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	It would fit the pattern for the PW2 to get the update but not the PW1.

06-22-2015, 05:43 PM	#18
twowheels Wizard Posts: 1,854 Karma: 13432974 Join Date: Nov 2010 Device: Kobo Clara HD, iPad Pro 10", iPhone 15 Pro, Boox Note Max	While I'd be happy to get the update, even if I don't it'll still be the same Paperwhite that I've been reading on since it was first released, and I'll still be able to read just like I was able to before. :-)

06-23-2015, 03:33 AM	#19
JohnRR Connoisseur Posts: 61 Karma: 642334 Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Earth Device: None	If an update to the Paperwhite 1 means I will be forced to see hyphenation in my books, I am not going to update even though Amazon provides it in the future. I now always set my Paperwhite 1 to airplane mode to avoid accidental updates. Also, it seems in the future all Kindle will have hyphenation and this cannot be disabled. I have now stopped buying from Amazon unless this is solved.

06-23-2015, 06:53 AM	#21
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	but in paper books the hyphens are set by humans and thus are much more sensible, & in print you know they are present deliberately, and not introduced because of a faulty conversion, or a renderer bug . i don't think the comparison is that valid really - in a paper book you also have no option to change the font, or the font size, either, but adding that realistic "feature" to an e-reader would not be progress, any more so than is adding forced, mechanised hyphenation which is not to everyone's taste. I fear I'll have to resort to some complex workflow of download to K for PC drm strip ,edit CSS, sideload back to device... palaver, assuming that changes to CSS can/will override firmware, which is not a given. perhaps if enough people return enough books because of enforced hyphenation, amazon will eventually get the message !

06-23-2015, 11:48 AM	#24
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	any machine algorithm for hyphenation is suspect IMHO because it has to cope with arbitrary screen & font sizes, unlike a human typesetter who has full control of the finished page. I am pretty sure that the thread cross referenced a few posts back has some particularly heinous/ egregious ( where's that thesaurus when you need it ) examples of amazon's early attempts. I hate seeing character's sur- names being rather random- ly hypehnated just to suit sc- reen widths

06-23-2015, 03:46 PM	#26
howyoudoin how YOU doin? Posts: 1,100 Karma: 7371047 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: India Device: Kindle Keyboard, iPad Pro 10.5”, Kobo Aura H2O, Kobo Libra 2	Human typeset books most definitely do not manually choose the location of every hyphen. The font, the font size, the word spacing all get priority, and the type setter isn't going to go back and mess around with those once again just because the finely tuned settings he chose carefully resulted in a few hyphens in less than ideal locations. You can't retrospectively fix the hyphenation without affecting all those other parameters already chosen. It's a tussle between mainly word spacing and hyphenation, and no typesetter worth his salt would mess up his word spacing to "fix" hyphenation. Poor word spacing can mess up your enjoyment of an entire line of text. Poor hyphenation only messes up one word.

06-26-2015, 04:35 PM	#29
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,421 Karma: 85400180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	Now I am waiting for them to update my Kindle Touch. Err... I'd still have USB Downloader mode, right? RIGHT?!?!

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