Canadian Public Libraries for Fair Ebook Pricing Launches Website

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

The whole idea that I don't "own" the ebook that I paid for, and therefore can't give it to somebody, lend it to somebody, let my kids read it, or donate it to my local library, really grates on me. In my mind I should have the same rights as if I had purchased a pbook...it's just in a different format.... but that's another topic.

Precisely, they want you to buy everything at full price but own nothing.

The Cable comps are charging full price to "buy" a season of a tv show and store it on their cable/dvr box. But what happens to those shows if you decide to go to another carrier? Do you suddenly lose access? That is just not right.

[theducks]

Do the Authors, Agents reap the near full amount of the difference between the consumer and Library prices? This is a use fee.

When I buy a 'site' software license, it typically only has a set per seat (system) or Per simultaneous connection limit. No date, no (total) use counts limits. I don't ever remember a 'Site' license increasing the 'per' charge over that of a single use.


Back in the days when a Librarian stamped the Due Date ON the checkout card pocket, there were way more than 16 stamps.

Are dead tree readers more careless?
Is the Library-bound grade Quality poorer?

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by theducks

Is the Library-bound grade Quality poorer?

Usually higher and with a replacement warranty, but not a lot of "library editions" are being put out anymore. Libraries often get the same as the retail edition (at a discount from list price).

[faithbw]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Is that $106 for a limited time period, or one with a limited number of loans, or is it an "eternal" licence? If it's the latter, it's probably justified by the fact that library users (if my own library is anything to go by) tend to be rather hard on books, and a popular paper book will have to be replaced at relatively frequent intervals, particularly if it's a paperback. Ebooks do not degrade.

For some publishers, the higher rate is only for a limited time (such as peak demand). Once a book has been released for a while, the price will go down dramatically. Also, depending on the publisher, the price charged is for a permanent license but others provide license on a temporary basis (i.e. for a certain number of checkouts or a certain time period).

I still find the pricing troubling though. Libraries aren't charged a much higher price for new release p-books. Often, they receive a discount. Libraries are on such a limited budget as it is. The high prices for e-Books makes it so much harder to fill demand. P-books that don't have a waiting list at all will have a waiting list for the e-Book because libraries just can't afford to buy as a many copies (despite the clear demand).

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by Barcey

Example: Michael Connelly 'The Burning Room'
Customer Price: $15.99
Libraries Pay: $106.00

My neighborhood library is currently closed for a US$3,080,000 renovation. Collection size is about 35,000 volumes, giving a renovation price per volume of $88.

So add $88.00 to that $15.99, and you have $101.99. That's not $106.00, but what happens when operating expenses like salaries, utilities, and routine maintenance are added in? Well, looking at the operating budget, it looks to me like that might be another $10.00 per year.

Of course, there always is another side. The renovation cost is higher than it would be in many other communities. And the library doesn't just pay $106.00. It also has to, I believe, pay fees to Overdrive beyond the cost of books. Plus, the physical libraries provide support to the eBook infrastructure, such as when eBook patrons come in person to join the library or renew their card.

My feeling is that they should add everything up and be highly influenced, in deciding whether to buy paper or eBook, by the total cost of ownership.

As for the www.fairpricingforlibraries.org, they have as much right as anyone else to express their opinion. My opinion is that fairness and prices don't have a relationship, except with necessities like basic foodstuffs.

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

My neighborhood library is currently closed for a US$3,080,000 renovation. Collection size is about 35,000 volumes, giving a renovation price per volume of $88.

So add $88.00 to that $15.99, and you have $101.99. That's not $106.00, but what happens when operating expenses like salaries, utilities, and routine maintenance are added in? Well, looking at the operating budget, it looks to me like that might be another $10.00 per year.

Of course, there always is another side. The renovation cost is higher than it would be in many other communities. And the library doesn't just pay $106.00. It also has to, I believe, pay fees to Overdrive beyond the cost of books. Plus, the physical libraries provide support to the eBook infrastructure, such as when eBook patrons come in person to join the library or renew their card.

My feeling is that they should add everything up and be highly influenced, in deciding whether to buy paper or eBook, by the total cost of ownership.

As for the www.fairpricingforlibraries.org, they have as much right as anyone else to express their opinion. My opinion is that fairness and prices don't have a relationship, except with necessities like basic foodstuffs.

Wow, you have to admit you're really reaching there.

Operating costs have nothing to do with how much the libraries pay the publishers. If there are operating cost savings they should be returned to the tax payers or redirected to other library services. It's not free money for the publishers.

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Is that $106 for a limited time period, or one with a limited number of loans, or is it an "eternal" licence? If it's the latter, it's probably justified by the fact that library users (if my own library is anything to go by) tend to be rather hard on books, and a popular paper book will have to be replaced at relatively frequent intervals, particularly if it's a paperback. Ebooks do not degrade.

Yeah, for those books, it might cost roughly the same. But you cannot go from "will cost roughly the same" to "is justified," for the age-old Humean reason, and because book salesmen, just like ordinary people (I will for the moment ignore the question whether people who do not consider themselves ordinary have such a right), do not have a "right to constant revenues".
Secondly, for all books that are not "popular" -- and I am guessing this is true for the majority, but you can probably substantiate this empirically -- this line of "reasoning" does not hold water at all, and it's just another post hoc "justification" for price gouging.

[rkomar]

I'm thinking that the average number of times a paper book gets loaned out is also dragged down by unpopular books that are gotten rid of before they fall apart. So, stopping ebooks being loaned out after the average of 26 times is probably generous towards the publishers.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

But you cannot go from "will cost roughly the same" to "is justified," for the age-old Humean reason, and because book salesmen, just like ordinary people (I will for the moment ignore the question whether people who do not consider themselves ordinary have such a right), do not have a "right to constant revenues".

It's been a long time since I read anything by David Hume, but didn't he think you can't derive morals, including judgments of fairness, from facts? And an eBook costing a library $106 is a fact, just as surely as anything I wrote. Also, wasn't Hume an advocate of economic freedom? Please come up with a quote to correct me on how Hume regarded prices, if correction I need. But remember that Hume was anti-mercantilism. I suspect Hume would have thought that Canadian libraries spending tax dollars, even just a few, to pressure foreign businesses into lowering prices, is a poor use of government resources.

Googling this exact phrase from your post:

"right to constant revenues"

brings just one result -- this thread.

And I don't recall anyone expressing the idea in different words.

From the Fair Pricing for Libraries website:

http://www.fairpricingforlibraries.org/

In some cases, major multinational publishers charge libraries 3–5 times more for ebooks than they charge consumers.

Here's what Canada's libraries can do.

If they can afford the prices charged by the major multinational publishers, they can pay it.

If they can't afford the prices charged by the major multinational publishers for eBooks, then buy the multinational titles in paper, and concentrate on Canadian-owned publishers for the eBook collection. This, of course, assumes that Canadian-owned publishers really charge libraries less for eBooks.

[PeterT]

From today's Toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015...librarian.html

High ebook prices ‘unsustainable,’ says city’s top librarian
Publishers charge libraries up to $135 for an ebook, five times as much as the public would pay.

Toronto Public Library is crying foul over “unreasonably high” ebook prices that it says limit its titles as demand soars for virtual reading.

The organization’s top executive, Vickery Bowles, said publishers charge vastly different prices to libraries than average consumers, and the ebooks come also with many usage restrictions.

In an interview with the Star on Tuesday, the city librarian called the prices and conditions “unsustainable,” saying some publishers charge libraries $85 for an ebook while the average consumer gets the same title for only $15.99.

“That puts a lot of pressure on our budget,” she said. “We need something that is more reasonable.”

According to information provided by the library, the Big Five, large publishers that provide about half the library’s books, charge libraries roughly 1.5 to five times the price average consumers pay for ebooks, and some stipulate they can be used only a certain number of times or over a certain period.

The highest prices come from Random House Canada and Hachette Book Group, which charge up to $85 and $135 per book, respectively.
...

[Barcey]

According to information provided by the library, the Big Five, large publishers that provide about half the library’s books, charge libraries roughly 1.5 to five times the price average consumers pay for ebooks, and some stipulate they can be used only a certain number of times or over a certain period.

Interesting that she is including the statement that the library is only getting half of their books from the big five. Probably too subtle for the publishers to get the clue.

Bowles said the library would prefer a “hybrid model” with lower prices and no restrictions for a certain number of copies, adding that she understands the organization does need to “pay a premium.
“If Toronto Public Library is going to (need) 100 copies of an ebook, what would work for us is if we could buy 10 copies at a premium price of, say, $40 per copy, and we would have ongoing and perpetual access to those 10 copies,” she said.
“The 90 copies we would buy at a lower rate and those copies can expire in a year.”

A reasonable suggestion (for large libraries) that will never happen because it doesn't meet the conspiring publisher's goal of creating "friction" in ebook library lending. I think the libraries are just conceding that their budget won't sustain these prices so they have to give the conspiring publishers the "friction" they so desire. All they can do is educate the public so that the library patrons direct their anger at the appropriate party.

I hope that this means that the libraries will expand the Big Library Read program (http://biglibraryread.com/) to start promoting new Indie authors. It would be great to see them have an ebook from each genre in this type of program with unlimited loans (no waiting) for a two week period. They'd be helping to promote new quality authors and I think that would be more beneficial than promoting best sellers. Get readers to submit suggestions, get librarians to read and select the winners and work with the authors to setup the promotion.

The Star sought comment from all the publishers, but none was immediately available.

Not surprising, they were probably meeting to discuss if they should respond or not.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by Barcey

All they can do is educate the public so that the library patrons direct their anger at the appropriate party.

Here's some data that could be part of that education.


Free Library of Philadelphia OverDrive collection:

Encrypted EPUB titles: 22,544

Encrypted Kindle titles: 20,768



Toronto Public Library OverDrive collection:

Encrypted EPUB titles: 73,339

Encrypted Kindle titles: Zero

I think most who aren't Amazon fans will realize which multinational company can be most plausibly blamed for blocking eInk Kindle owners, outside the US, from borrowing recent well-reviewed titles. And it is neither OverDrive, nor any of its suppliers.

IMHO, Amazon makes the US look a bit bad. And, also IMHO, Bertelsmann, majority owner of the world's largest trade publisher, is a plus for Germany's reputation. And I don't see a need for anger against either.

[AnemicOak]

So you know it's Amazon that's "at fault" that there is no Kindle lending in other countries through OverDrive? After the stink some of the Big 5 made once it started in the US and the restrictions they've tried to place on it in the US including pulling and restricting books available to OD.

Personally I have no idea why it never got expanded past the US. Could be Amazon's fault, could be OD's, could be publishers or it could be some combo. Not being privy to any types of negotiations that might have taken place I'm not going to point fingers because I like or dislike some specific company.

Not sure what Kindle lending has to do with the subject of the thread anyway.

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Here's some data that could be part of that education.


Free Library of Philadelphia OverDrive collection:

Encrypted EPUB titles: 22,544

Encrypted Kindle titles: 20,768



Toronto Public Library OverDrive collection:

Encrypted EPUB titles: 73,339

Encrypted Kindle titles: Zero

I think most who aren't Amazon fans will realize which multinational company can be most plausibly blamed for blocking eInk Kindle owners, outside the US, from borrowing recent well-reviewed titles. And it is neither OverDrive, nor any of its suppliers.

IMHO, Amazon makes the US look a bit bad. And, also IMHO, Bertelsmann, majority owner of the world's largest trade publisher, is a plus for Germany's reputation. And I don't see a need for anger against either.

Amazon Publishing should absolutely make their books available to libraries at reasonable prices. I'd also like to see Amazon work with libraries to make books available to Kindles and that's one of the reasons that I won't buy a Kindle. Others can make their own choice. None of that has anything to do with the 5 major publishing houses demanding "friction" in ebook library lending.

Since ebooks were introduced the publishers complained that they weren't happy with the ebook library lending. They could reluctantly live with paper book lending because at least people had to travel through hail, snow and rain to borrow and return the books (up hill both ways) but with ebooks people could just borrow. They didn't even have to return them. There needed to be "friction". Maybe they could make them slide down asphalt, crawl across broken glass or get dragged across sandpaper. As a minimum they should have to visit the library branches to download the ebooks. Reluctantly they had to abandon the brave fight, it might not look good if they made granny slog her wheelchair to the library to download an ebook. More importantly Amazon was starting to sell ebooks at reasonable prices, they had larger fights.

After the publishers illegally conspired to raise ebook prices they were ready to return to the library lending battle. People who didn't want to pay the higher prices were actually borrowing the ebooks from libraries, that was the final straw. They all stopped providing ebooks to libraries at any cost. They absolutely couldn't provide ebooks unless there was sufficient "friction". Unfortunately they couldn't find a "friction" model that would play well in the press. Librarians might display kids, handicapped and the elderly in bouts of library lending friction. After much deliberation they finally decided the minimum "friction" they could live with is that library patrons need to wait as long as possible and tax payers have to pay four to six times as much.

Friction causes heat. The publishers all keep repeating they need "friction" in library lending. Why should the heat be directed at the libraries instead of the publishers? Why do you think it should be directed at Amazon instead of the publishers that demand it?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Barcey

Since ebooks were introduced the publishers complained that they weren't happy with the ebook library lending. They could reluctantly live with paper book lending because at least people had to travel through hail, snow and rain to borrow and return the books (up hill both ways) but with ebooks people could just borrow.

Paper book library lending has absolutely nothing to do with publishers - it's not up to them to "live with it" or otherwise. Copyright law makes it legal for libraries to lend paper books. Most Western nations - Canada included - compensate authors for library loans by making a payment directly to the author per loan from the library. This is called the "public lending right" (PLR).

eBooks are different because they are licensed, and the licensor can set whatever terms they wish (provided it's not illegal under contract law).