Author sort - Page 2

chaley · 01-13-2015, 05:00 PM

These are deep waters.

My experience: it is impossible to formulate rules because the "right" answer depends on many things. For example, in French a name of "De Something" would probably sort under 'D', while a name of "de Something" would sort under 'S'. Except that I have friends who insist that their last name is "de Something" (anti-nobility?) and other friends who insist equally strongly that their last name is "Something". One person I know whose name is something like "Jean Claude de la Rive Gauche" says that his last name is "Rive Gauche", but apparently his brother uses "de la Rive Gauche". The same is true with friends who have "van" in their name; some accept the implication of a noble family line and others do not. I am sure you will run into the same thing with "von", "del", "della", "du", and the like.

The "Van Lustbader" example given earlier is illustrative. It is surprising to me that he capitalizes the "Van", but perhaps the "honorific" is frequently capitalized in Dutch (it isn't with people that I know). It is not surprising that he considers his name to be "Lustbader". It is surprising that he refers to the "Van" as his middle name instead of the "particle" or "honorific" that it almost certainly was at some point in history. My guess is that he just gave up and took a route that made his life easier.

Next you run into names that are naturally LN FN without commas, such as names in many Asian cultures. These names should never be reversed.

You also see names such as John Smith count Mumble, where the person's last name depends on the context. Sometimes it is Smith and sometimes it is Mumble.

My take: look for an instance where the person wrote their own name and use that. If you can't find such an instance, ask them. If you cannot ask them then go with the mix of what you think is right based on the person's culture and on the "average" of what you can find.

DaltonST · 01-13-2015, 05:12 PM

Mariana Trench deep:

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Van [U.S.A]

Van \van\ as a boy's name (also used as girl's name Van), is pronounced van. It is of Danish origin, and the meaning of Van is "of". Equivalent of "de" in French names. Also a nickname for Evan. Van was sometimes converted from a surname prefix to a given name by early immigrants to America. The name became familiar in the 1950s due to actors Van Johnson and Van Heflin. Pianist Van Cliburn; actor Van Johnson.

Van has 3 variant forms: Vann, Von and Vonn.

There is 1 feminine form of Van: Vanna. As in, Vanna White in Hollywood.

Popularity

Van is a very popular first name for males (#484 out of 1220) and also a very popular surname or last name for all people (#4187 out of 88799) (2000 U.S. Census).

Read more at http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meanin...ztZl70YEEfY.99

Zetmolm · 01-13-2015, 06:02 PM

They got the origin wrong: 'van' is of Dutch origin.

Many Dutch surnames have prepositions such as 'van', 'van de', 'van der', etc. Capitalization rules in Dutch for these names are pretty complex. If there are two prepositions in one name (e.g. 'van der') the second word is never capitalized. The first word is not capitalized if another part of the name (first name, initials, spouse's name) is in front of it. Otherwise it is capitalized. The 'real' surname is always capitalized and also determines the place of the name in alphabetical order. Some correct examples:
Jan van den Berg
Mr. Van den Berg
Mr. J. van den Berg

And suppose this guy's wife was born 'ten Haaf', her name would spelled as:
Anna van den Berg-ten Haaf

Both Mr and Mrs van den Berg would expect to find their name under 'B' in the phonebook.

Please note, all this is just the simplified version of the capitalization rules

BetterRed · 01-13-2015, 06:16 PM

I know a Van, it's a diminutive of Vanguard. According to his parents at the time of his birth they'd just read Hitchhiker's...

Like the Ford Prefect the Standard Vanguard was a post WW2 British car. I suspect they were also Van Morrison fans, but given the times and their family's politics they wouldn't have wanted to called him Ivan, lest they be disinherited and banished to Patagonia.

BR

MSWallack · 01-14-2015, 11:05 AM

I think that I may just go with the best rule of all (at least for my own personal metadata): Whatever feels right. Thought some sort of author (and maybe musical artist) database that had "correct" information to address these issues (is the Rolling Stones or The Rolling Stones...) would be really helpful.

Anacleto · 01-15-2015, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSWallack

Anacelto: I don't have an answer for you, but I do have a question. As a non-Spanish speaker, how do I know when the middle name is part of the surname (last name) or part of the first name (or a true middle name)? If I saw Gabriel García Márquez I would assume (as you note) that the sort name should be Márquez, Gabriel Garcia. Is it true that with ALL Spanish names, the name in the middle should be treated as a part of the surname? If not, what is the general rule to determine whether the name is part of the surname or the first name?

Sadly no. You can find author with four words, two in fist name and two in last name, and author with three words: two in first name, and only one in last name. There are no rules. Thats why I need to import the sort author from metadata.

leftright · 01-24-2015, 01:58 AM

The "da" and "de" in Spanish and Portuguese means from.

Non English speaking western countries have their ancestry embedded in their names. The mothers maiden name and father surname indicates lineage, i.e. Mr Joaquin da Silva Pedras is descended from the da Silva's and the Pedras, some folks have two generations embedded in their names', i.e. Aida Aleixo Gonzalves Maria De Brito (that's a actual name).

In the originating countries there is no confusion as to which is the middle name and which is the last, but in English speaking countries a name like "Joaquin da Silva Pedras" causes great confusion if in the documents of origin the last name is written as da Silva Pedras, the Portuguese and Spanish automatically filter that name to, middle is da Silva, and last name is Pedras.

The concept of Full name and abbreviated name doesn't exist in western latin countries.

This is all very confusing for English and Asian bureaucracy, and I agree, I have officially changed/simplified my latin double barrelled name to a first name and one surname only without a "da", to simplify bureaucracy in all other countries, much to the disgust of the original latin authorities.

off world characters,
"your name sir"
"John Andrews Milky Way Sagittarius de Rigel"

RotAnal · 02-28-2015, 01:36 PM

Hi ppl,
as an Italian user, I invite you to sort ppl like Leonardo Di Caprio (clearly of Belpaese ancestors). Would you like to find him in Calibre as "Caprio, Leonardo Di"?
Anyway exactly as there are automatic language rules in sorting Titles (I discovered them switching between English and Italian in the Language Field), there should be also rules to cut names in order to sort them correctly.

LadyKate · 03-07-2015, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BetterRed

:lol: And I'm not long out of bed, it's already 25°C, raining, heading for 35°C, and the damn frogs kept me awake half the night

BR

I have to ask, where are you that it is so warm and not freezing your toes off? (asked from the cold northlands of Montreal Quebec)

PeterT · 03-08-2015, 12:30 AM

New South Wales, Australia is BetterRed's base.

BeeTee-Ess · 03-09-2015, 01:36 AM

My family like to accuse me of pedantry, and I do like to get things right when I can.

However, ultimately, remember you are using these rules so that you can find your authors in Calibre. So, if you know - or can find - the rule for any given name, by all means use it. It is then up to you to remember what you have used.

If you do not, then make it up. It is still up to you to remember what you have used.

01-24-2015, 01:58 AM	#22
leftright Addict Posts: 224 Karma: 55704 Join Date: Sep 2013 Device: Kobo Glo	The "da" and "de" in Spanish and Portuguese means from. Non English speaking western countries have their ancestry embedded in their names. The mothers maiden name and father surname indicates lineage, i.e. Mr Joaquin da Silva Pedras is descended from the da Silva's and the Pedras, some folks have two generations embedded in their names', i.e. Aida Aleixo Gonzalves Maria De Brito (that's a actual name). In the originating countries there is no confusion as to which is the middle name and which is the last, but in English speaking countries a name like "Joaquin da Silva Pedras" causes great confusion if in the documents of origin the last name is written as da Silva Pedras, the Portuguese and Spanish automatically filter that name to, middle is da Silva, and last name is Pedras. The concept of Full name and abbreviated name doesn't exist in western latin countries. This is all very confusing for English and Asian bureaucracy, and I agree, I have officially changed/simplified my latin double barrelled name to a first name and one surname only without a "da", to simplify bureaucracy in all other countries, much to the disgust of the original latin authorities. off world characters, "your name sir" "John Andrews Milky Way Sagittarius de Rigel" Last edited by leftright; 01-24-2015 at 02:10 AM.

02-28-2015, 01:36 PM	#23
RotAnal Connoisseur Posts: 87 Karma: 1234 Join Date: Sep 2012 Device: Onyx Boox M92	Hi ppl, as an Italian user, I invite you to sort ppl like Leonardo Di Caprio (clearly of Belpaese ancestors). Would you like to find him in Calibre as "Caprio, Leonardo Di"? Anyway exactly as there are automatic language rules in sorting Titles (I discovered them switching between English and Italian in the Language Field), there should be also rules to cut names in order to sort them correctly. Last edited by RotAnal; 02-28-2015 at 01:38 PM.

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01-13-2015, 05:00 PM	#16
chaley Grand Sorcerer Posts: 12,447 Karma: 8012886 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Notts, England Device: Kobo Libra 2	These are deep waters. My experience: it is impossible to formulate rules because the "right" answer depends on many things. For example, in French a name of "De Something" would probably sort under 'D', while a name of "de Something" would sort under 'S'. Except that I have friends who insist that their last name is "de Something" (anti-nobility?) and other friends who insist equally strongly that their last name is "Something". One person I know whose name is something like "Jean Claude de la Rive Gauche" says that his last name is "Rive Gauche", but apparently his brother uses "de la Rive Gauche". The same is true with friends who have "van" in their name; some accept the implication of a noble family line and others do not. I am sure you will run into the same thing with "von", "del", "della", "du", and the like. The "Van Lustbader" example given earlier is illustrative. It is surprising to me that he capitalizes the "Van", but perhaps the "honorific" is frequently capitalized in Dutch (it isn't with people that I know). It is not surprising that he considers his name to be "Lustbader". It is surprising that he refers to the "Van" as his middle name instead of the "particle" or "honorific" that it almost certainly was at some point in history. My guess is that he just gave up and took a route that made his life easier. Next you run into names that are naturally LN FN without commas, such as names in many Asian cultures. These names should never be reversed. You also see names such as John Smith count Mumble, where the person's last name depends on the context. Sometimes it is Smith and sometimes it is Mumble. My take: look for an instance where the person wrote their own name and use that. If you can't find such an instance, ask them. If you cannot ask them then go with the mix of what you think is right based on the person's culture and on the "average" of what you can find.

01-13-2015, 05:12 PM	#17
DaltonST Deviser Posts: 2,265 Karma: 2090983 Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Texas Device: none	Mariana Trench deep: http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Van [U.S.A] Van \van\ as a boy's name (also used as girl's name Van), is pronounced van. It is of Danish origin, and the meaning of Van is "of". Equivalent of "de" in French names. Also a nickname for Evan. Van was sometimes converted from a surname prefix to a given name by early immigrants to America. The name became familiar in the 1950s due to actors Van Johnson and Van Heflin. Pianist Van Cliburn; actor Van Johnson. Van has 3 variant forms: Vann, Von and Vonn. There is 1 feminine form of Van: Vanna. As in, Vanna White in Hollywood. Popularity Van is a very popular first name for males (#484 out of 1220) and also a very popular surname or last name for all people (#4187 out of 88799) (2000 U.S. Census). Read more at http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meanin...ztZl70YEEfY.99

01-13-2015, 06:02 PM	#18
Zetmolm Guru Posts: 615 Karma: 2362786 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: PocketBook Verse Pro Colour	They got the origin wrong: 'van' is of Dutch origin. Many Dutch surnames have prepositions such as 'van', 'van de', 'van der', etc. Capitalization rules in Dutch for these names are pretty complex. If there are two prepositions in one name (e.g. 'van der') the second word is never capitalized. The first word is not capitalized if another part of the name (first name, initials, spouse's name) is in front of it. Otherwise it is capitalized. The 'real' surname is always capitalized and also determines the place of the name in alphabetical order. Some correct examples: Jan van den Berg Mr. Van den Berg Mr. J. van den Berg And suppose this guy's wife was born 'ten Haaf', her name would spelled as: Anna van den Berg-ten Haaf Both Mr and Mrs van den Berg would expect to find their name under 'B' in the phonebook. Please note, all this is just the simplified version of the capitalization rules

01-13-2015, 06:16 PM	#19
BetterRed null operator (he/him) Posts: 21,725 Karma: 29711016 Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Sydney Australia Device: none	I know a Van, it's a diminutive of Vanguard. According to his parents at the time of his birth they'd just read Hitchhiker's... Like the Ford Prefect the Standard Vanguard was a post WW2 British car. I suspect they were also Van Morrison fans, but given the times and their family's politics they wouldn't have wanted to called him Ivan, lest they be disinherited and banished to Patagonia. BR

01-14-2015, 11:05 AM	#20
MSWallack Right, Except When Wrong Posts: 363 Karma: 4323767 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Indianapolis Device: Kindle Oasis 3 (sometimes iPad Mini).	I think that I may just go with the best rule of all (at least for my own personal metadata): Whatever feels right. Thought some sort of author (and maybe musical artist) database that had "correct" information to address these issues (is the Rolling Stones or The Rolling Stones...) would be really helpful.

03-08-2015, 12:30 AM	#25
PeterT Grand Sorcerer Posts: 13,511 Karma: 78910202 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Toronto Device: Libra H2O, Libra Colour	New South Wales, Australia is BetterRed's base.

03-09-2015, 01:36 AM	#26
BeeTee-Ess Addict Posts: 306 Karma: 679580 Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Brisbane, Australia Device: K3, K4NT, KPW2, Voyage, iP4, iP6, iPad Mini, HP TouchPad, Kobo Mini	My family like to accuse me of pedantry, and I do like to get things right when I can. However, ultimately, remember you are using these rules so that you can find your authors in Calibre. So, if you know - or can find - the rule for any given name, by all means use it. It is then up to you to remember what you have used. If you do not, then make it up. It is still up to you to remember what you have used.

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