Argument in favor of DRM

[webroot]

Originally Posted by leaston

I think it's the other way around. They have to trust that irrespective of whether DRM exists, people who want a free copy will usually find a way to get one!

It's market driven, the same way the legal retail system is. Supply and demand. For as long as there are punters out there who want a copy of the latest Rowling novel, someone will crack the DRM and distribute it.

Perhaps at one time DRM would have been a deterrent to the average Joe casually copying something for a friend, but is that still the case? Even a quick browse online can provide opportunities for most people to find DRM stripped files, be they games, apps, music or books.

Hmm, is that an argument for or against DRM??

All these DRM strippers are for only Adobe and Amazon's and yes there is no relief for popular titles such as J K Rolling wherever they go (drm vendor) hacker will chase them.

I doubt your market driven argument, inconvenience of drm is a matter but market is like a coin whose one side is buyer and other author, at least about software industry I can tell what we have today as a software ecosystem is decided from top to bottom and in a way they could make money first. Most programming language and technology is tailored so they can make money out of it. Even a publisher and author is thinking for money irrespective whether they liked writing /editing very much.

[QuantumIguana]

That DRM is easily defeated is no misconception. DRM on a book need only be defeated once, then the book can be distributed on pirate sites. It takes some skill to create the tools to remove DRM, but once they are created, anyone can use them.

Another big weakness with DRM is the analog hole. A book has to be read with human eyes. Even if there was such a thing as unbreakable encryption, someone could simply type the book in or scan it, and now they have a copy.

DRM isn't free. If you're continually creating new DRM schemes that adds expenses. If it is for a niche product, the expense per copy gets pretty high. Also, if you're continually creating new DRM schemes, then you need to make sure that all previously-supported devices can support the DRM.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by webroot

2. DRM can be easily broken is another widespread misconception I have seen, well every encryption can be broken by a skilled hacker but he would probably target popular DRM schemes such as Adobe's etc and then there would be number of other DRM solutions from less known vendor how can a ordinary reader bypass them when no crack is released for them?

I was to buy an eBook for one of my Readers that I cannot remove the DRM from, then I cannot read the eBook as that would be incompatible DRM with my Reader and thus, a waste of money.

[webroot]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

That DRM is easily defeated is no misconception. DRM on a book need only be defeated once, then the book can be distributed on pirate sites. It takes some skill to create the tools to remove DRM, but once they are created, anyone can use them.

Another big weakness with DRM is the analog hole. A book has to be read with human eyes. Even if there was such a thing as unbreakable encryption, someone could simply type the book in or scan it, and now they have a copy.

DRM isn't free. If you're continually creating new DRM schemes that adds expenses. If it is for a niche product, the expense per copy gets pretty high. Also, if you're continually creating new DRM schemes, then you need to make sure that all previously-supported devices can support the DRM.

OCR scanning is a real challenge, still breaking encryption based drm require very good skill and somebody who want spend time on that. For an ordinary user Joe needs to wait until hacker has released a crack, and a hacker wont do for less known drm schemes. So the answer to drm is stay away from standard or well known drm schemes such as adobe.

Btw breaking drm is not as easy that many think, one has to derive at device key by an expert guess.

[John F]

Originally Posted by webroot

I would hear more on this but as per gut feeling say to break a DRM hacker must discover the hidden device key (algo), all vendors have different method for generating their keys, there is no straightforward algorithm for detecting key, that part of work is manual.

Does it matter if the work is manual? If there is demand it will most likely be hacked.

Originally Posted by webroot

All these DRM strippers are for only Adobe and Amazon's and yes there is no relief for popular titles such as J K Rolling wherever they go (drm vendor) hacker will chase them.

...

And Lit has been hacked
And Fairplay has been hacked
and Kobo epub has been hacked
and B&N has been hacked (although you may include that with Adobe)

I'm not sure why your mentioning J K Rowling, but I don't think Rowling has been hacked, but than again, it doesn't have encryption based DRM.

[webroot]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I was to buy an eBook for one of my Readers that I cannot remove the DRM from, then I cannot read the eBook as that would be incompatible DRM with my Reader and thus, a waste of money.

Human mind desires more comfort when he is given one there is no end to it. Btw distributor terms and pricing may have considered that you are intended to use ebook on that device only. Buying a kindle encrypted book and thinking that you fully own it for whatever use would be mistake.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by webroot

Buying a kindle encrypted book and thinking that you fully own it for whatever use would be mistake.

Then tell Amazon to stop using the word BUY on the button I have to click in order to get a Kindle eBook. The word BUY means I own it once I've BOUGHT it. So yes, i can easily see where many people would think they've BOUGHT and OWN Kindle eBooks.

[webroot]

Originally Posted by John F

Does it matter if the work is manual? If there is demand it will most likely be hacked.


And Lit has been hacked
And Fairplay has been hacked
and Kobo epub has been hacked
and B&N has been hacked (although you may include that with Adobe)

I'm not sure why your mentioning J K Rowling, but I don't think Rowling has been hacked, but than again, it doesn't have encryption based DRM.

These big names are bound to be attacked and they had no option but to abandon DRM. But we here are not any employees of those big companies but maybe a startup ebook webstore or indie publishers otherwise why would anybody discuss drm at first place those company CEO would have decided already.

To crack a less known drm you will have to hire a good programmer instead you can directly buy.

I just mentioned j k rolling as an example if she decides to go wth drm then she will have no abode.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by webroot

OCR scanning is a real challenge, still breaking encryption based drm require very good skill and somebody who want spend time on that. For an ordinary user Joe needs to wait until hacker has released a crack, and a hacker wont do for less known drm schemes. So the answer to drm is stay away from standard or well known drm schemes such as adobe.

Btw breaking drm is not as easy that many think, one has to derive at device key by an expert guess.

OCR is inconvenient, but only has to be done once, and then can be distributed indefinitely. Security through obscurity won't prevent DRM from being cracked. Using a lesser-known DRM scheme is no solution. The expense would be prohibitive - when you can spread the cost of the DRM over a great many copies, it doesn't raise the cost much, but if the cost is only spread over a small number of copies, it raises the price significantly. No one's going to buy it. And upon what device will it run? Your obscure, expensive DRM is no good at all unless people have devices that can decrypt that DRM. People aren't going to buy an obscure reader that runs obscure DRM, as it will cost them a lot of money. They will just buy something else.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by webroot

[Amazon] have gotten so big mainly because their kindle ecosystem which is not only a awesome reader but a robust hardware proof DRM device.

Ummm.... Amazon's DRM has been removeable almost since day 1, since the Mobipocket system it was based on was broken back in 2008 or earlier. Hardly robust....

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by webroot

All these DRM strippers are for only Adobe and Amazon's and yes there is no relief for popular titles such as J K Rolling wherever they go (drm vendor) hacker will chase them.

It's not a question of popular titles, but popular DRM schemes.

And J K Rowling isn't a good example. Pirate copies of her books were widely available before there were any ebooks, and she now sells her HP ebooks without any encryption-DRM.

[doubleshuffle]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Then tell Amazon to stop using the word BUY on the button I have to click in order to get a Kindle eBook. The word BUY means I own it once I've BOUGHT it. So yes, i can easily see where many people would think they've BOUGHT and OWN Kindle eBooks.

But nothing beats Kobo's "It's all yours!" after you've completed your purchase...

[webroot]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

OCR is inconvenient, but only has to be done once, and then can be distributed indefinitely. Security through obscurity won't prevent DRM from being cracked. Using a lesser-known DRM scheme is no solution. The expense would be prohibitive - when you can spread the cost of the DRM over a great many copies, it doesn't raise the cost much, but if the cost is only spread over a small number of copies, it raises the price significantly. No one's going to buy it. And upon what device will it run? Your obscure, expensive DRM is no good at all unless people have devices that can decrypt that DRM. People aren't going to buy an obscure reader that runs obscure DRM, as it will cost them a lot of money. They will just buy something else.

To a degree I accept this. A less known drm wouldnt keep their cost as much as Adobe do. For cracking a less known drm you need to find somebody and hire him so that you can read on. Soon when mobile apps will be dominant mode of ebook consumption then it would be matter of installing required reader in your handset. Although current state of mobile framework arent secure enough... Still i accept that relying on my solution is just a transient option.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by webroot

maybe a startup ebook webstore or indie publishers otherwise why would anybody discuss drm at first place

There is one enormous drawback to developing your own independent encryption-based DRM scheme.

No existing ebook reading devices will be able to read the ebooks you sell.

In addition, breaking a DRM scheme that's implemented on a general computer is easier than you might think. I beleive an Italian textbook publisher (?Scuola books?) did develop their own scheme, but of course it could only work with their own software. If I remember correctly, it was cracked in short order.

B&N seem to have moved in this direction themselves. Whether they'll make it profitable is a matter for debate (since books bought through them can now only be read on their own nook devices). It will be interesting to see how long it takes for their new scheme is cracked (if anyone bothers).

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by webroot

To a degree I accept this. A less known drm wouldnt keep their cost as much as Adobe do. For cracking a less known drm you need to find somebody and hire him so that you can read on. Soon when mobile apps will be dominant mode of ebook consumption then it would be matter of installing required reader in your handset. Although current state of mobile framework arent secure enough... Still i accept that relying on my solution is just a transient option.

Disagree all you want. I wouldn't need to hire someone to crack the DRM, people do that for a hobby. A lesser-known DRM would be very expensive, you don't have to reinvent the wheel if you use existing technology. But using a lesser-known DRM to protect a low-volume textbook? That would add considerable cost per copy. It is very unlikely that e-books will become apps. People don't want their devices cluttered with apps, people want to use an app to access the books they already have. App development isn't free either.