Planning before Writing a Novel

[hoichi]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

Why are you calling it 'elusive' if it's freely available all over the internet?

There was this Russian joke about an uncatchable cowboy called Joe (there were whole series of jokes where any gun-wielding mounted western character was called a cowboy). Anyway, it goes:
A guy comes to a town and all of a sudden sees a horseman that races by the main street at full speed and is soon lost in the puffs of dust.
“Who's that,” the man asks.
“That's the Uncatchable Joe,” they reply.
“What, can nobody catch him?”
“Nobody just gives a darn about him.”

No offence to Papel. I don't grok the whole visual mapping thing, but obviously a lot of people find it useful.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by hoichi

There was this Russian joke about an uncatchable cowboy called Joe (there were whole series of jokes where any gun-wielding mounted western character was called a cowboy). Anyway, it goes:
A guy comes to a town and all of a sudden sees a horseman that races by the main street at full speed and is soon lost in the puffs of dust.
“Who's that,” the man asks.
“That's the Uncatchable Joe,” they reply.
“What, can nobody catch him?”
“Nobody just gives a darn about him.”

No offence to Papel. I don't grok the whole visual mapping thing, but obviously a lot of people find it useful.

I admit it: I've tried mind-mapping with EVERY damned program out there, not just for writing, but for everything else (website design, for example: to get to the meat of the thing, a la wireframing) and it just does NOT work for me. I'm patently not a visual creature, not in that way. It works for my good friend Holly Lisle, and she promotes it a lot in her "how-to" books and courses, which are incredibly successful (and her students go on to be very successful authors, which says something...), but I'm an outliner. Give me Word, outline view, and I'm at my best.

I find that the Snowflake Method is actually very useful for character development, and, if you do it right, it's a surprisingly useful tool in "seeing' plot development opportunities. I think it might be utterly useless for something like non-fic or for experimental fiction, but for straightforward, character/plot-driven fiction, it works a treat.

I think that the Snowflake guy and his partner have a book out on Amazon that I saw, which is Goldilocks something /Snowflake. In it, he tells the story of how Goldilocks goes to a writer's conference, and chaos ensues, but I'm told it's really clever--each section is about how to use Snowflake, while showing how the author used Snowflake to create the characters and plot. A friend of mine bought it (a whopping $2, or something like that) and thought it was great; she'd tried pantsing and it didn't work, tried outlining and that didn't work, and the Snowflake thing really got her going. She's at 50K words now. so...who am I to argue with her success? She's further along than I am, although I admit, my hands run out of steam at the end of the business day. (That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it.)

My personal fave program, for the "other stuff," though, is still good old YWrite. I have YWriter5, the paid version, and I really like the features. It's PLAIN. It doesn't have all the fancy foo-foo BS that something like LSB has. But you know what? it works. It's excellent for scene compartmentalization, drag-drop, and actually, it has wonderful time-lining. You pay attention to your characters, in what scenes, and it develops a really useful, not confusing, set of storyboards for you. Who's where, doing what, when? LSB's storyboarding is worthless, really--you can DO it, but you have to do it--the whole thing--manually. I'm like, hell, if I knew that, I wouldn't be looking for a program to do it, would I?

You can export Snowflake Pro to an RTF, which, if you've really worked it, creates a terrific basis for an entire novel. You can put an RTF into almost anything--Word, Scrivener, etc. You could easily break the final Synopsis (long version) into scenes for either Scriv, Word, LSB (if you must, sigh), or Ywriter.

Those are the tools I'd recommend. Word (or whatever word-processing program you like, as long as it has an outline-style view, with drag-drop, etc.), YWriter for actually writing the damn thing, and the Snowflake program, which I think I remember is pretty cheap, for character development. OH! One thing that LSB does have, that is fairly neat (if you can find a used copy somewhere, or...) is a character-naming program, which is handy. Other than that, it's not my cuppa. I thought it was all hat, no cattle, and the RTF export was badly flawed, as well. If you stick with something like OO/LO, Snowflake and YWriter, which has a free version, you could have everything you need, pretty darned free/cheap.

FWIW.
Hitch

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I think that the Snowflake guy and his partner have a book out on Amazon that I saw, which is Goldilocks something /Snowflake. In it, he tells the story of how Goldilocks goes to a writer's conference, and chaos ensues, but I'm told it's really clever--each section is about how to use Snowflake, while showing how the author used Snowflake to create the characters and plot. A friend of mine bought it (a whopping $2, or something like that) and thought it was great; she'd tried pantsing and it didn't work, tried outlining and that didn't work, and the Snowflake thing really got her going. She's at 50K words now. so...who am I to argue with her success? She's further along than I am, although I admit, my hands run out of steam at the end of the business day. (That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it.)

Yep, it's called How to Write a Novel Using the Snowflake Method and it's also available at Smashwords.
Smashwords

[saoir]

I read this snowflake thing a while back and immediately saw it as far too prescriptive. The thing is there are many many ways to write a book and this is just one methodology. It doesn't work for lots of people.
I've heard from people who like to know the ending before they even start, such as Michael Connelly, author of the Harry Bosch books. Others need to make masses of rough notes. Others write rough drafts. Trying to force one's mind into a template that works for one writer is a mistake imho.
In my case I like to make some rough notes and then start writing. My first draft changes only a little before it's finished. I don't like to know too much before I start, only the immediately imminent plot because I like things to organically grow from the story as I write. Even half way through I may not know the ending.
Horses for courses.
I also use Scrivener and it is the program that really catapulted my writing urge forward to fruition. Templates are over rated. Just pick the Novel style and write the story in scenes.
My 2c.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by saoir

I read this snowflake thing a while back and immediately saw it as far too prescriptive. The thing is there are many many ways to write a book and this is just one methodology. It doesn't work for lots of people.
I've heard from people who like to know the ending before they even start, such as Michael Connelly, author of the Harry Bosch books. Others need to make masses of rough notes. Others write rough drafts. Trying to force one's mind into a template that works for one writer is a mistake imho.
In my case I like to make some rough notes and then start writing. My first draft changes only a little before it's finished. I don't like to know too much before I start, only the immediately imminent plot because I like things to organically grow from the story as I write. Even half way through I may not know the ending.
Horses for courses.
I also use Scrivener and it is the program that really catapulted my writing urge forward to fruition. Templates are over rated. Just pick the Novel style and write the story in scenes.
My 2c.

Howard:

Well...I agree, that everyone has their own methodology, and nothing works for all, but don't confuse Snowflake with a template. That's not how it works. I've looked at it, in-depth, since this thread (with my friend who used it), and the driving theme behind it is simply nothing more than in-depth character development--not some type of "template."

I can see how it would be extremely useful for new writers. I see a lot of books--a LOT--and frankly, the one thing that seems to be missing by and large is any type of character development. I see a lot of one-dimensional, undeveloped characters, which of course, leads to one-dimensional and uninteresting plotlines (because you just can't stir your sticks to care about the characters).

I wish I could demonstrate this with one particular book--I can't, as that person was a client--but I remember well, when I first started my company, a book that actually had a really excellent plotline. It had a good reveal--everything that it should have. But the "author" was actually a businessman who had the idea, who hired a(n allegedly former) ghostwriter to co-author the book with him. The two decided to use astrological "types" for their characters, and promptly created a book that was as flat as a pancake, and now, some 5 years later, it's still not selling.

They went on to write 5 more books in the series, each one flatter and less interesting than the last. It was, all in, an exercise in ego; the author could afford to pay to have something like that done, and can now call himself an "author." But it's a shame...the first book could have had real legs. If he'd spent ANY time doing character development, instead of caricatures and stereotypes, it could have been a big book, self-pub-wise, in mystery.

Nor do I see why Snowflake would be "prescriptive," any more than if someone simply typed out 20 or 50 or ? pages of character sketches. {shrug}. That's really all it does; it forces someone to think about their characters, in-depth, and how they fit within the framework of the story. For actual story-writing, Snowflake isn't even used...so I don't see how it can be limiting. It isn't--nor does it claim to be--a word-processor, like Scrivener. It helps people create synopses and outlines, which some folks really like. Pantsers, obviously, won't like it. (BTW; Snowflake doesn't care if you know the ending or not, actually. Not relevant to what it does or asks you to do.)

What I like about Snowflake, having played with it now, is that it doesn't waste a lot of time like some of those "writing programs" (LSBXE springs spectacularly to mind), which are obviously designed more to make someone "feel like a real writer" than providing actual functionality.

That's why I recommended YWriter--another program that really delivers on functionality without wasting time/energy on things like "image galleries" and "pretty backgrounds" and, god help us all, "music for your scenes." That's the stuff that LSB provides that I find to be utter frippery. I mean, in this day and age, who doesn't have the ability to make a regular directory of images, or play iTunes (or whatever) on their computer ALREADY? And truthfully, even though there's a lot of MS-hate in the world, Word already does what most of Scrivener does; it's just that most folks can't be bothered to actually learn it.

{shrug}. As you said, horses-->courses. The only thing that matters is getting the text on the paper, so to speak. The rest? All choices and options.

Hitch

[SciFiWriter]

Crich,

I must be very different. I wrote my first novel by sitting down at the PC, firing up MS Word, and just plain typing it. Yeah, ok. I maybe did some rewrite here and there as the spirit moved me. I did some thinking about it as I went along, but I never even once wrote a single page of outline. I turned out to run 90,000 words plus.

I just this February was in a very bad car accident. Hit by a drunk driver. I wrote a whole short 60,000 word novel in six weeks on a request from an editor. While she reviewed that one, I wrote the second novel in that series in yet another six weeks.

So what am I trying to say? If the novel is in there, it will come out of you. When I am writing, I am a crazy man. I eat, sleep, and crap the story. If I am away from my keyboard the story makes my hair stand right out.

I am trying to inspire you, man. Don't waste time. Sit down and start writing. Write crap if you have to but get started. Write what moves you. You don't have to start at the beginning. Start with a scene that is so damned vivid you can't get it out of your head and write the ass off that scene. It's all digital! You can always go back and revise it. The more you write, the better you will become, so write! Do what's in your heart! Write! Don't plan. Write.

Now for the rest of the story... once you are already writing the story, you will know what is wrong with it. THAT is when you get help, get a book, maybe even write an outline to keep you on the story line. But, if you are not writing, you don't even know what you don't know.

In case you can't tell, I am very passionate about my writing. That is how you need to feel about it. If you do, you will love every moment doing it.

[crich70]

Well I am using a minimum of planning to get my project started. I've nailed down the opening and the wrap-up bits using a Scrivener Template that I put together a while back based on the Lester Dent formula. I figured out some basic math to help guide me as well. If 1 scene is 1000 words then that comes to 50 scenes divided between 4 parts and if you have two scenes per chapter that means that you have 25 chapters that average out at 8 pages per chapter (with 1000 words = to 4 pages). I'm sure I won't hold exactly to that framework probably but it does mean that I will have a rough idea where I am along the way at least. I just feel too adrift without some sort of plan. I did win NaNo in 2009 but have never gotten the ms into any sort of shape.

[MDIreman]

You can reap the rewards of careful planning (what are they again? direction, speed, cohesiveness) but you run the danger of being reluctant to change things midway knowing that it may undo a ton of work that you've invested.

I try to do all my planning in the form of quickly jotted notes, not elaborate templates. Some of the best developments in a story happen when you're in the middle of writing and you are forced to consider something that you didn't want to. I'm a big fan of detailed timelines, but only as a tool used during/after plotting as a tool to ensure you don't have any contradictions.

[saoir]

Originally Posted by MDIreman

You can reap the rewards of careful planning (what are they again? direction, speed, cohesiveness) but you run the danger of being reluctant to change things midway knowing that it may undo a ton of work that you've invested.

I try to do all my planning in the form of quickly jotted notes, not elaborate templates. Some of the best developments in a story happen when you're in the middle of writing and you are forced to consider something that you didn't want to. I'm a big fan of detailed timelines, but only as a tool used during/after plotting as a tool to ensure you don't have any contradictions.

I agree wholeheartedly on both counts. Excessive planning can easily act as a comfort blanket that stifles creativity.

[Lemurion]

I tend to alternate between yWriter on Windows and Scrivener on the Mac, and would recommend either. I tried LSB a long time ago and found it got in the way. The others don't.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I tend to alternate between yWriter on Windows and Scrivener on the Mac, and would recommend either. I tried LSB a long time ago and found it got in the way. The others don't.

Scrivener works on both mac and windows now.

[Nabeel]

Okay, I confess, I write non-fiction. But it's still creative!! I think I've picked up two basic rules about planning writing, which are nicely contradictory.

1. Be very clear about exactly what you can do with this material. Don't promise to write the history of the decline of the west if you've only got material relating to the Welsh wine industry.

2. Be absolutely open about the possibilities of what you might do with this material. Listen to comments from (semi-) interested friends and colleagues. Let yourself daydream. Keep coming back to the material and imagining how else it might be presented or used. Don't be afraid of re-thinking.

It's a tightrope! You need to balance between the two.

Good luck to all fellow writers living in fiction land.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by crich70

Scrivener works on both mac and windows now.

It does, but I'd been using yWriter on the PC long before Scrivener was ported over.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

It does, but I'd been using yWriter on the PC long before Scrivener was ported over.

I just like YWriter. I think its bare, but complete, functionality works for me. No frou-frou craparooni. It's an obviously purpose-built program, without all the distractions and bells and whistles--most utterly unnecessary--that are installed in other "writing programs."

It's one thing if someone is writing, say, GOT, and has 20-30-50 different plotlines all going at once; but for the average writer, I think YWriter pretty much just WORKS. And for me, anyway, software that just WORKS is always nice.

Hitch

[saoir]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

It does, but I'd been using yWriter on the PC long before Scrivener was ported over.

Not taking issue with your choices at all ... just saying that placing your writing in the dropbox folder you can sync across both OSs and thus use Scrivener on both devices during the same project. As I say ... just saying