Is all fantasy derivative of Tolkien? How to prove it isn't? - Page 2

Ravensknight · 10-04-2014, 04:25 PM

Just wondering why you feel this need so strongly? You do realize don't you that no matter what "evidence" you show, his mind isn't going to be changed?

This thread is great for someone who "wants" to have evidence shown them, but for someone like how you described your dad, it won't matter one whit and you'll just end up arguing, fighting and creating bad feelings all round.

Unless there is more that is going on than you let on, I'd say let him think what he wants. It doesn't hurt you and if he misses out on some of the above authors, even that won't hurt him.

Pax · 10-04-2014, 04:28 PM

Sorry, J.R.R. Tolkien is not the father of fantasy
That might be of interest

Nabeel · 10-04-2014, 05:31 PM

There's always the argument that the whole of Tolkien is derivative of older Anglo-Saxon sources.

I have a sneaking regard for Tolkien. The man set out to write a mythology for modern Britain, and sixty years later, who doesn't know what a 'hobbit' is?

rcentros · 10-04-2014, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crich70

C.S. Lewis's Narnia books are not clones of Tolkien though they were friends and were part of the same circle.

I've read that Tolkien didn't like the Narnia books. He wasn't fond of allegory.

rcentros · 10-04-2014, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pax

Sorry, J.R.R. Tolkien is not the father of fantasy
That might be of interest

No, he's just the father of good heroic fantasy.

rcentros · 10-04-2014, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geralt

China Mieville is an excellent representative of New Weird genre, which is influenced by Lovecraft.
Here's what he said about Tolkien:

Miéville works to move fantasy away from J. R. R. Tolkien's influence, which for him is stultifying and reactionary. He once described Tolkien as "the wen on the arse of fantasy literature."

Jealousy can make you say a lot of weird things.

What made Tolkien's stuff so good is that he just didn't make up phrases in Elf (Elven?) or Dwarf (Dwarven?), he actually wrote the languages. I read somewhere that he had made six or seven languages by the time he was eight. He went carefully through his book to make the sure he had gotten the moon in the right part of the sky to fit in with the rest of his timeline, etc. -- which gave his story authenticity.

rcentros · 10-04-2014, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nabeel

There's always the argument that the whole of Tolkien is derivative of older Anglo-Saxon sources.

I have a sneaking regard for Tolkien. The man set out to write a mythology for modern Britain, and sixty years later, who doesn't know what a 'hobbit' is?

Exactly. And I don't think he would have any problem with the claim that his stories were derived from myths. As far as I know, however, hobbits were his own creation.

Geralt · 10-04-2014, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcentros

Jealousy can make you say a lot of weird things.

What made Tolkien's stuff so good is that he just didn't make up phrases in Elf (Elven?) or Dwarf (Dwarven?), he actually wrote the languages. I read somewhere that he had made six or seven languages by the time he was eight. He went carefully through his book to make the sure he had gotten the moon in the right part of the sky to fit in with the rest of his timeline, etc. -- which gave his story authenticity.

Yes that's it. Mieville is jelly. Glad we sorted that one out.
I don't agree with Mieville, but god forbid he has some principled qualms with Tolkien. Nah, he's just jelly. <_<

Geralt · 10-04-2014, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcentros

No, he's just the father of good heroic fantasy.

Tolkien doesn't have anything to do with heroic fantasy.
He has everything to do with epic fantasy, you know fate of the world, secondary world, epic quest.
Heroic- well that would be Robert E Howard for example.

I think you are not very clear yourself on the difference between different sub genres.

crich70 · 10-04-2014, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcentros

I've read that Tolkien didn't like the Narnia books. He wasn't fond of allegory.

There might have been a bit of rivalry as well. Here Tolkien had read selections of his writings to the Inklings. Writings that had taken yrs to develop and then C.S. Lewis just seemed to sit down and 'have a go at it' one day and came up with his books.

QuantumIguana · 10-04-2014, 10:36 PM

"Derivative" is a strong word. He's certainly influenced fantasy, but to what extent is debatable. But being influenced doesn't make it derivative.

Tarana · 10-04-2014, 11:04 PM

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother to argue with him over the issue. Not worth your time. Let him enjoy what he reads and you enjoy what you like. Find someone else in your life that enjoys the genre you enjoy. It's nearly always a lost cause to try to bring someone around to enjoy your genre when they haven't sought it out themselves. He's likely decided what's worthy in his mind already.

As YOU know, a lot of fantasy is not sword and sorcery, and a lot of that is unrelated to LOTR. Even Brooks' books branched out considerably in plot after the first couple of books.

Joykins · 10-04-2014, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crich70

There might have been a bit of rivalry as well. Here Tolkien had read selections of his writings to the Inklings. Writings that had taken yrs to develop and then C.S. Lewis just seemed to sit down and 'have a go at it' one day and came up with his books.

The experience of reading them is similar--Tolkien takes years and years to read but you can zip through a Lewis book in an afternoon.

FWIW I would say that Tolkien is hugely influential, especially in epic/heroic fantasy, but there are plenty of other influences and subgenres in fantasy. I'm particularly fond of mannerpunk, and Austen (and some other classic writers) are far more influential in that subgenre than Tolkien is.

taustin · 10-05-2014, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravensknight

Just wondering why you feel this need so strongly? You do realize don't you that no matter what "evidence" you show, his mind isn't going to be changed?

I've got to agree. When he says "all fantasy is derivative of Tolkien," what he means is "I don't like fantasy, any fantasy, and never will," but he's either not really aware, or more likely, too polite to tell you that what you like to read is crap (in his opinion). If you provided irrefutable scientific proof that he is wrong (like showing him the hundreds of fantasy novels written before Tolkien put pen to paper), he'd just find a different excuse.

Give it up.

kacir · 10-05-2014, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Plus all the ones listed above and many, many, many more.

Howl's Moving Castle by Diana Wynne Jones

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10-04-2014, 04:25 PM	#16
Ravensknight Serpent Rider Posts: 1,123 Karma: 10219804 Join Date: Jun 2009 Device: Sony 350; Nook STR; Oasis	Just wondering why you feel this need so strongly? You do realize don't you that no matter what "evidence" you show, his mind isn't going to be changed? This thread is great for someone who "wants" to have evidence shown them, but for someone like how you described your dad, it won't matter one whit and you'll just end up arguing, fighting and creating bad feelings all round. Unless there is more that is going on than you let on, I'd say let him think what he wants. It doesn't hurt you and if he misses out on some of the above authors, even that won't hurt him.

10-04-2014, 04:28 PM	#17
Pax Zealot Posts: 135 Karma: 1052388 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Germany, Potsdam Device: Pocketbook Touch HD 3, Sony PRS 650	Sorry, J.R.R. Tolkien is not the father of fantasy That might be of interest

10-04-2014, 05:31 PM	#18
Nabeel Zealot Posts: 147 Karma: 2747136 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Britain Device: Kobo Aura One	There's always the argument that the whole of Tolkien is derivative of older Anglo-Saxon sources. I have a sneaking regard for Tolkien. The man set out to write a mythology for modern Britain, and sixty years later, who doesn't know what a 'hobbit' is?

10-04-2014, 10:36 PM	#26
QuantumIguana Philosopher Posts: 2,034 Karma: 18736532 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2 gen, Kindle Fire 1st Gen, Kindle Touch	"Derivative" is a strong word. He's certainly influenced fantasy, but to what extent is debatable. But being influenced doesn't make it derivative.

10-04-2014, 11:04 PM	#27
Tarana Wizard Posts: 4,061 Karma: 38840460 Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Minneapolis Device: PWSE, Voyage, K3, HDX, KBasic 7 & 8, Nook Glo3, Echos, Nanos	Honestly, I wouldn't even bother to argue with him over the issue. Not worth your time. Let him enjoy what he reads and you enjoy what you like. Find someone else in your life that enjoys the genre you enjoy. It's nearly always a lost cause to try to bring someone around to enjoy your genre when they haven't sought it out themselves. He's likely decided what's worthy in his mind already. As YOU know, a lot of fantasy is not sword and sorcery, and a lot of that is unrelated to LOTR. Even Brooks' books branched out considerably in plot after the first couple of books.

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