Penguin CEO: E-book is the answer to my prayers - Page 2

wayrad · 06-05-2008, 09:10 AM

I truly hope he intended to use a metaphor with that bit about "electronic dots and dashes", but a part of me fears he didn't...

Steven Lyle Jordan · 06-05-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayrad

I truly hope he intended to use a metaphor with that bit about "electronic dots and dashes", but a part of me fears he didn't...

Okay, so he's an executive, not an electronics expert...

TallMomof2 · 06-05-2008, 10:49 AM

Could you imagine reading a book in Morse Code? "dots and dashes...."

pilotbob · 06-05-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TallMomof2

Could you imagine reading a book in Morse Code? "dots and dashes...."

Perhaps he was thinking of the brail versions of the e-books.

BOb

MaggieScratch · 06-05-2008, 10:54 AM

I'd love to see a dependable breakdown, rather than speculation, as to what percentage of the price of pbooks can be attributed to printing and distribution vs. digital conversion and digital distribution for ebooks. There ARE costs involved with the latter two, though not as much as for pbooks. Ebooks still have to be edited, proofread, laid out, and publicized, so those overhead costs are the same as for pbooks, and ebooks should bear their percentage of the costs, same as for pbooks.

In other words, I don't think it's entirely fair to say "the book is already edited and proofread and all you have to do is run it through Mobipocket Creator and put it on a server so it should cost half as much." If we want ebooks to be considered real books, that is, equal in stature to, say, a MMPB, then the publisher should be able to recoup production costs associated with ALL versions of the books (editing etc.) from ebooks the same as for pbooks.

Also, while even pbooks begin life as electronic texts, since the last round or two of corrections are done on galleys--which usually are laid out in Quark or Adobe or similar software rather than word processing software--it's not as easy as it might seem to get a good quality electronic text from the final proofread copy of a book. What you basically have is not text but PICTURES of text. At my job we often do printed and electronic versions of things like newsletters, and each version goes through separate rounds of proofreading, as they are laid out in two different processes and errors can occur in either or both processes. There has to be proofreading done AFTER layout and that probably goes for ebooks as well--which introduces yet another round of proofreading, of having to proof the final electronic text AS WELL AS the galley and making sure they match, if you want a quality product. And I think we all want a quality product in our ebooks just like in our pbooks.

While I agree that ebooks should cost less than pbooks, 50% for a brand-new hardback book is a bit much, I think. 25% sounds more likely. When the book moves to paperback, the ebook price should drop accordingly. Just like now, if you want to pay less, you wait for the paperback.

Any editors out there who want to weigh in knowledgeably on the numbers?

Taylor514ce · 06-05-2008, 10:58 AM

I imagine (again, raw speculation. Sorry!) that a major part of the cost of an e-book production and delivery system is the purchase and maintenance of a DRM system. Dump DRM and you lower your costs and simplify distribution.

zelda_pinwheel · 06-05-2008, 10:59 AM

yes, i would be very interested by these figures as well, since it's true for now we are only speculating.

just one point though about the layout process, if they are using Adobe Indesign apparently you can now export directly to ePub, which should facilitate the creation of ebooks parallel to the print books considerably. if they are using Quark, they should switch to Indesign anyway (sorry, i really hate Quark, it's a personal preference. i'll stop now).

and i heartily second what Taylor said about DRM. *seriously* now ; we all hate it, and plus we have to pay for it, and as we all agree it won't stop anyone from making copies, if they really want to. just get rid of it, please ! and then reduce the prices.

MaggieScratch · 06-05-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

just one point though about the layout process, if they are using Adobe Indesign apparently you can now export directly to ePub, which should facilitate the creation of ebooks parallel to the print books considerably.

I'd still want to proofread it, frankly. Just a quick final readthrough, but still. At any point in the process, an error can be introduced.

Would someone have to do any layout at that point? I can't believe it's completely automated.

Good point about the DRM, though! I would also like to know the costs attributed with that.

zelda_pinwheel · 06-05-2008, 11:05 AM

oh, i'm not discouraging proofreading, on the contrary.

AnemicOak · 06-05-2008, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaggieScratch

Any editors out there who want to weigh in knowledgeably on the numbers?

Charles Stross (cstross) posted some info earlier about costs. I know he's an author and not an editor, but he's been very involved in ebooks and I would guess has made it his business to have fairly accurate info.

Here's part of an earlier post he made...

Quote:

It is worth noting at this point that the cost of paper-and-ink contributes maybe 10% of the cover price of a novel. Another 10% goes to the author (plus or minus), about 10% goes to the publisher in profits, and 70% is gobbled up by the wholesale and retail supply chain.

Ebooks still have a distribution system using companies like LightningSource that gobble up some of the money, just like a distro does for pbooks.

zelda_pinwheel · 06-05-2008, 11:08 AM

well, i imagine that a large chunk of that 70% is in turn gobbled up by costs like maintaining a physical store, paying the employees, warehouses, and let's not forget shipping... so it should be possible to reduce costs for the retail chains as well, which would still allow a reduction in price (on top of the 10% savings of the actual printing).

TheRealBillc · 06-05-2008, 11:15 AM

Here is a breakdown of book costs I found at Askdavetaylor.com:

$50 list price book
$25 to publisher
-4 for printing
-5 for inventory and obsolence
-2-3 for royalties
-5 for selling and marketing
-5 for overhead and warehousing
-1 for co-op
-2 for editorial and marketing

He goes into additional detail including that a majoe expense can be the warehousing costs, up to 40%, but that there numbers are typical.

pilotbob · 06-05-2008, 11:15 AM

I have no problem paying the MMPB price for an e-book... as long as I have the same rights to it as I do to a paper book. Which is noDRM, the ability to sell/transfer it to someone else.

BOb

MaggieScratch · 06-05-2008, 11:25 AM

My understanding is that retail outlets get books at a discount of anywhere from 40 to 55 percent (the big box chains getting the larger number), so you're saying that ebook retailers should get a lesser discount. Right? I agree with that (edit: but only if they reduce list prices), though keep in mind that many of the ebook retailers give discounts from the retail price (which is set by the publishers) because they can afford to based on the discount they receive from the publisher. That's also how Amazon and the big box booksellers can afford to sell pbooks at discount prices and still make money. They're giving up half their discount and making up for it in volume.

As I said in one of the Kindle threads, if Amazon is getting (presumably) a 55% discount on NY Times bestseller Kindle ebooks and selling them at a 50% discount, they're still making a tiny amount of money on them. Might not be enough to cover their expenses, though, which means they are taking a loss. Agree that their expenses (Sprint for Whispernet, server expenses, as well as publicity and technical staff salaries and associated expenses such as medical insurance and office space) should be less than the big boxes as they (maybe) use less personnel to run it (do we really know that?) and of course they don't have rent and utilities fees to pay for retail space.

I'm confusing myself now. Maybe I can simplify things by saying: while I don't think publishers and sellers should make MORE profit on an ebook than they do on a pbook, IMO it's perfectly fair to make the SAME profit on an ebook that they do on a pbook. (Insert "no DRM" qualifier here, I'm down with that.) The question is, how much does that reduce the price of an ebook from the pbook price? I doubt it's 50%.

MoSo · 06-05-2008, 11:33 AM

I'm a bit more hopeful - the support of the idea behind ebooks (in theory beyond a particular format) is the important thing. Eventually the market will set what the price is, despite what the publisher would like.

Comparatively, this is why I don't like to read Teleblog: I find Joe Wikert's (from Wiley and Sons) comments about ebook formats for anything other than PDA-type devices very disheartening.

06-05-2008, 10:54 AM	#20
MaggieScratch Has got to the black veil Posts: 542 Karma: 2144168 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Device: Kobo Aura One, Kindle Paperwhite 2	I'd love to see a dependable breakdown, rather than speculation, as to what percentage of the price of pbooks can be attributed to printing and distribution vs. digital conversion and digital distribution for ebooks. There ARE costs involved with the latter two, though not as much as for pbooks. Ebooks still have to be edited, proofread, laid out, and publicized, so those overhead costs are the same as for pbooks, and ebooks should bear their percentage of the costs, same as for pbooks. In other words, I don't think it's entirely fair to say "the book is already edited and proofread and all you have to do is run it through Mobipocket Creator and put it on a server so it should cost half as much." If we want ebooks to be considered real books, that is, equal in stature to, say, a MMPB, then the publisher should be able to recoup production costs associated with ALL versions of the books (editing etc.) from ebooks the same as for pbooks. Also, while even pbooks begin life as electronic texts, since the last round or two of corrections are done on galleys--which usually are laid out in Quark or Adobe or similar software rather than word processing software--it's not as easy as it might seem to get a good quality electronic text from the final proofread copy of a book. What you basically have is not text but PICTURES of text. At my job we often do printed and electronic versions of things like newsletters, and each version goes through separate rounds of proofreading, as they are laid out in two different processes and errors can occur in either or both processes. There has to be proofreading done AFTER layout and that probably goes for ebooks as well--which introduces yet another round of proofreading, of having to proof the final electronic text AS WELL AS the galley and making sure they match, if you want a quality product. And I think we all want a quality product in our ebooks just like in our pbooks. While I agree that ebooks should cost less than pbooks, 50% for a brand-new hardback book is a bit much, I think. 25% sounds more likely. When the book moves to paperback, the ebook price should drop accordingly. Just like now, if you want to pay less, you wait for the paperback. Any editors out there who want to weigh in knowledgeably on the numbers? Last edited by MaggieScratch; 06-05-2008 at 10:56 AM.

06-05-2008, 11:15 AM	#27
TheRealBillc evangelist Posts: 42 Karma: 48 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Jersey City, NJ Device: PRS-700 deceased now 950	Breakdown of book costs Here is a breakdown of book costs I found at Askdavetaylor.com: $50 list price book $25 to publisher -4 for printing -5 for inventory and obsolence -2-3 for royalties -5 for selling and marketing -5 for overhead and warehousing -1 for co-op -2 for editorial and marketing He goes into additional detail including that a majoe expense can be the warehousing costs, up to 40%, but that there numbers are typical.

06-05-2008, 11:25 AM	#29
MaggieScratch Has got to the black veil Posts: 542 Karma: 2144168 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Device: Kobo Aura One, Kindle Paperwhite 2	My understanding is that retail outlets get books at a discount of anywhere from 40 to 55 percent (the big box chains getting the larger number), so you're saying that ebook retailers should get a lesser discount. Right? I agree with that (edit: but only if they reduce list prices), though keep in mind that many of the ebook retailers give discounts from the retail price (which is set by the publishers) because they can afford to based on the discount they receive from the publisher. That's also how Amazon and the big box booksellers can afford to sell pbooks at discount prices and still make money. They're giving up half their discount and making up for it in volume. As I said in one of the Kindle threads, if Amazon is getting (presumably) a 55% discount on NY Times bestseller Kindle ebooks and selling them at a 50% discount, they're still making a tiny amount of money on them. Might not be enough to cover their expenses, though, which means they are taking a loss. Agree that their expenses (Sprint for Whispernet, server expenses, as well as publicity and technical staff salaries and associated expenses such as medical insurance and office space) should be less than the big boxes as they (maybe) use less personnel to run it (do we really know that?) and of course they don't have rent and utilities fees to pay for retail space. I'm confusing myself now. Maybe I can simplify things by saying: while I don't think publishers and sellers should make MORE profit on an ebook than they do on a pbook, IMO it's perfectly fair to make the SAME profit on an ebook that they do on a pbook. (Insert "no DRM" qualifier here, I'm down with that.) The question is, how much does that reduce the price of an ebook from the pbook price? I doubt it's 50%. Last edited by MaggieScratch; 06-05-2008 at 04:34 PM.

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06-05-2008, 09:10 AM	#16
wayrad Fanatic Posts: 551 Karma: 1121392 Join Date: May 2008 Location: USA Device: HTC One M8	I truly hope he intended to use a metaphor with that bit about "electronic dots and dashes", but a part of me fears he didn't...

06-05-2008, 10:49 AM	#18
TallMomof2 Kindlephilia Posts: 2,017 Karma: 1139255 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Snowpacolypse 2010 Device: Too many to count	Could you imagine reading a book in Morse Code? "dots and dashes...."

06-05-2008, 10:58 AM	#21
Taylor514ce Actively passive. Posts: 2,042 Karma: 478376 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: US Device: Sony PRS-505/LC	I imagine (again, raw speculation. Sorry!) that a major part of the cost of an e-book production and delivery system is the purchase and maintenance of a DRM system. Dump DRM and you lower your costs and simplify distribution.

06-05-2008, 10:59 AM	#22
zelda_pinwheel zeldinha zippy zeldissima Posts: 27,827 Karma: 921169 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Paris, France Device: eb1150 & is that a nook in her pocket, or she just happy to see you?	yes, i would be very interested by these figures as well, since it's true for now we are only speculating. just one point though about the layout process, if they are using Adobe Indesign apparently you can now export directly to ePub, which should facilitate the creation of ebooks parallel to the print books considerably. if they are using Quark, they should switch to Indesign anyway (sorry, i really hate Quark, it's a personal preference. i'll stop now). and i heartily second what Taylor said about DRM. seriously now ; we all hate it, and plus we have to pay for it, and as we all agree it won't stop anyone from making copies, if they really want to. just get rid of it, please ! and then reduce the prices.

06-05-2008, 11:05 AM	#24
zelda_pinwheel zeldinha zippy zeldissima Posts: 27,827 Karma: 921169 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Paris, France Device: eb1150 & is that a nook in her pocket, or she just happy to see you?	oh, i'm not discouraging proofreading, on the contrary.

06-05-2008, 11:08 AM	#26
zelda_pinwheel zeldinha zippy zeldissima Posts: 27,827 Karma: 921169 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Paris, France Device: eb1150 & is that a nook in her pocket, or she just happy to see you?	well, i imagine that a large chunk of that 70% is in turn gobbled up by costs like maintaining a physical store, paying the employees, warehouses, and let's not forget shipping... so it should be possible to reduce costs for the retail chains as well, which would still allow a reduction in price (on top of the 10% savings of the actual printing).

06-05-2008, 11:15 AM	#28
pilotbob Grand Sorcerer Posts: 19,832 Karma: 11844413 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tampa, FL USA Device: Kindle Touch	I have no problem paying the MMPB price for an e-book... as long as I have the same rights to it as I do to a paper book. Which is noDRM, the ability to sell/transfer it to someone else. BOb

06-05-2008, 11:33 AM	#30
MoSo Crankier than average Posts: 143 Karma: 345 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Southern Oregon mountains Device: Kindle #1, Kindle #2; internet appliance - The Chumby.	I'm a bit more hopeful - the support of the idea behind ebooks (in theory beyond a particular format) is the important thing. Eventually the market will set what the price is, despite what the publisher would like. Comparatively, this is why I don't like to read Teleblog: I find Joe Wikert's (from Wiley and Sons) comments about ebook formats for anything other than PDA-type devices very disheartening.

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