Tags and not alphabetizing

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

That's because there is no such thing as a metadata editor for authors. If you wish order to always be preserved, simply dont use that editor for your custom column.

I'm wondering if you misunderstood my post. I took your suggestion

Add your own columns (check the box that says 'Contains names'). IIRC, order is preserved for tags like columns containing names, just like it is for the authors column, you will have to use & instead of , as the separator, however.

as meaning such a column would behave like the Author column in all respects

If I add and remove values in the suggested custom column in the Metadata Editor they can get reordered. If I edit them in the Book List via F2 they don't seem to get reordered (but I am not sure that's 100% true). However, space is at a premium in the book list, so if there are more than a few values its more convenient to edit them in the Metadata Editor.

My experience is that in the Author column the order of 'values' is always preserved - no matter what. So when the custom column did not behave that way, ie values got reordered, I tried to make it happen with the Author names, in case I was mistaken. I couldn't, but I wouldn't want or expect that I could.

In other respects a Names custom column behaves like the Authors column, including the Use author sort in Tag Browser and Author sort name algorithm tweaks.

As far as I can tell its only in the preservation of the order of values when they're edited via the Metadata Editor dialogue that a Names custom column doesn't behave like the Author column. I don't mind that they get reordered, but if they weren't then I could live with that too.

BR

[chaley]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

If I add and remove values in the suggested custom column in the Metadata Editor they can get reordered. If I edit them in the Book List via F2 they don't seem to get reordered (but I am not sure that's 100% true). However, space is at a premium in the book list, so if there are more than a few values its more convenient to edit them in the Metadata Editor.

My experience is that in the Author column the order of 'values' is always preserved - no matter what. So when the custom column did not behave that way, ie values got reordered, I tried to make it happen with the Author names, in case I was mistaken. I couldn't, but I wouldn't want or expect that I could.

In other respects a Names custom column behaves like the Authors column, including the Use author sort in Tag Browser and Author sort name algorithm tweaks.

As far as I can tell its only in the preservation of the order of values when they're edited via the Metadata Editor dialogue that a Names custom column doesn't behave like the Author column. I don't mind that they get reordered, but if they weren't then I could live with that too.

BR

You are correct. The edit-metadata (single) editor widget unconditionally sorts the field even if is_names is set. This is wrong, and I have submitted a fix.

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by chaley

You are correct. The edit-metadata (single) editor widget unconditionally sorts the field even if is_names is set. This is wrong, and I have submitted a fix.

BR

[kovidgoyal]

Originally Posted by davidfor

Using a custom column for tags isn't very convenient. It won't get populated by the metadata download so there would be some copy and paste afterwards.

But since tags are not downloaded in any particular order, they would need manual editing afterward anyway.

[BookJunkieLI]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

But since tags are not downloaded in any particular order, they would need manual editing afterward anyway.

OP here, this is the actual answer to my question. I think I wasn't clear enough when I originally posted. I need for the tag order to be preserved during the initial import and remain un-alphabetized. Apparently that's impossible. Thanks for the attempts to help though.

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by BookJunkieLI

OP here, this is the actual answer to my question. I think I wasn't clear enough when I originally posted. I need for the tag order to be preserved during the initial import and remain un-alphabetized. Apparently that's impossible. Thanks for the attempts to help though.

@BookJunkieLI - For Fan Fiction at least, if FFDL allowed Tags to be put into a custom column (as one can with Author and some other 'standard' fields) you could take up Kovid's suggestion of putting the tags into a Names custom column.

Once chaley's change (see post 17) goes through, the order of entry will always be preserved in such a column.

Not being a Fan Fiction fan I have no idea as to whether that would be a viable solution.

BR

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

But since tags are not downloaded in any particular order, they would need manual editing afterward anyway.

But, they will be sent by the metadata source in an order. Whether that is alphabetical, importance or something else, depends on the source. Looking at what comes down from Goodreads, they appear to be in the order the genre list is displayed on the page for the book. The metadata download dialog does display them in this order. That is then copied to the tags field of the metadata editor and displayed every time I open editor.

And copying and maintaining the tags in another column causes other problems. They are written to epubs as part of the core attributes (in creation order, not alphabetical). Other tools/apps/readers do use them. That would mean they would have to be copied back to the tags before sending the books outside of calibre.

I suppose this is a place we have to agree to disagree. I still might look at what would be needed to support it. As the tags are stored in the order they are entered on the metadata edit screen, I'm a little surprised that changing the displayed order is that hard. I suppose it depends on how the different places that display them retrieve them. Of course, adding options for the display always adds complexity. Looking will satisfy my curiosity, and if nothing else, let me learn a bit more of the calibre code.

[BookJunkieLI]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

@BookJunkieLI - For Fan Fiction at least, if FFDL allowed Tags to be put into a custom column (as one can with Author and some other 'standard' fields) you could take up Kovid's suggestion of putting the tags into a Names custom column.

Once chaley's change (see post 17) goes through, the order of entry will always be preserved in such a column.

Not being a Fan Fiction fan I have no idea as to whether that would be a viable solution.

BR

That's a completely workable and actually preferred solution. I'll definitely keep an eye out for that fix. Thanks for letting me know that's what that fix will do.

[kovidgoyal]

@davidfor: Tags from multiple metadata sources are often combined by the download system, so the only case where source order is relevant is: 1) when the source has a meaningful order, which is rare 2) And the user has enabled downloads from only a single source, or a book is found in only a single source, which is again rare

And the problem is not just one of changing how they are displayed. If you displaying them preserving internal order, then you have to make sure that internal order is preserved by all operations on them, such as editing metadata, the manage tags dialog, the edit tags dialog, exporting/re-importing emtadata from dozens of tag supporting file formts and on and on.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by kovidgoyal

@davidfor: Tags from multiple metadata sources are often combined by the download system, so the only case where source order is relevant is: 1) when the source has a meaningful order, which is rare 2) And the user has enabled downloads from only a single source, or a book is found in only a single source, which is again rare

Yes, when they come from multiple sources, the order can't be determined. With your comments here, I'm surprised that they aren't being sorted before being displayed.

I did look at a few of the sources. From a quick test of a few books and looking at the site, the sources that are returning tags do have an order. This is displayed if I use a singe source. Goodreads, Google and FictionDB all work like that.

And the problem is not just one of changing how they are displayed. If you displaying them preserving internal order, then you have to make sure that internal order is preserved by all operations on them, such as editing metadata, the manage tags dialog, the edit tags dialog, exporting/re-importing emtadata from dozens of tag supporting file formts and on and on.

At this point, it is more just curiosity. And I don't consider it a waste of time to ferret through the calibre code. But...

The metadata edit dialog and importing and exporting epubs already does maintain the order. The edit tags dialog doesn't and I don't know about other formats. At first I couldn't see why you mentioned the manage tags dialog, but I just realised why. Deleting from this seems to keep the current order. As does deleting from the tag browser. That only leaves the edit tags dialog and import/export from other formats. And how the tags could get used in template code. This was actually the bit that had me the most worried.

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by BookJunkieLI

That's a completely workable and actually preferred solution. I'll definitely keep an eye out for that fix. Thanks for letting me know that's what that fix will do.

@BookJunkieLI - Oh, that's good

As well as chaley's fix won't you also need JimmXinu to enhance the PI to allow selection of Tags in the Config->Custom Columns drop down selector, or can you do that via an override in the personal.ini file

I hope you can get what you want

BR

[BookJunkieLI]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

@BookJunkieLI - Oh, that's good

As well as chaley's fix won't you also need JimmXinu to enhance the PI to allow selection of Tags in the Config->Custom Columns drop down selector, or can you do that via an override in the personal.ini file

I hope you can get what you want

BR

Actually, JimmXinu gave me a lovely little bit of code:

keep_in_order_ships:true

to drop into the default section of the Personal.ini that gives me exactly what I'm looking for in conjunction with the custom columns configuration screen in FFDL. So I'm a very happy clam right now.

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by chaley

You are correct. The edit-metadata (single) editor widget unconditionally sorts the field even if is_names is set. This is wrong, and I have submitted a fix.

@chaley - works (hard)

@BookJunkieLI - couldn't see anything in 1.40 release notes, but... no one will notice that 'cept thee and me

BR